Survivors Discuss Podcast

Shari: Hello and welcome to episode five of Survivors Discussed. Our beloved team extrovert is out today, but we will be thinking about her. We are joined by Angela Harrington and Dr. Laura Anderson to discuss complex post traumatic stress disorder, which so many survivors religious trauma.

And I’m going to invite both of them to introduce themselves. Laura, 

Cait: would you like to go first? I’ll go 

Laura: first. Sure. Well, as you said, my name is Laura Anderson. I’m a licensed psychotherapist in Tennessee. I run a tiny private practice here for clients in Tennessee. And then I’m also the founder and director of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, which is an online trauma coaching company where we specialize in all things religious trauma, faith deconstruction, purity culture getting out of cults, fundamentalism, You know, really [00:01:00] easy, light topics like that.

But it’s really fun. I’m also the co founder of the religious trauma Institute and. Now, I guess I’m an author as well which is kind of fun. So I wrote When Religion Hurts You, which came out in October of 2023, and it’s been really lovely to just hear how encouraged and supported people have felt with the book, which was my hope in this whole process.

Shari: And Angela. 

Angela: Yeah, I’m Angela Harrington. I’m a faith deconstruction coach, a seminary trained online pastor and Mama Five, which is the one that always seems to amaze people the most. I specialize in helping people recover from religious trauma. Typically in conjunction with therapy, because that’s the best way to do it.

I also host the Deconstructing Faith Summit and the Faith Deconstruction Cafe on Facebook, and I am also an author. Deconstructing Your Faith Without Losing Yourself comes 

Laura: out in [00:02:00] February. And I’m really excited 

Cait: to read your book. February, what day does it come 

Laura: out? February 20th. Okay, 

Cait: awesome.

So that’s, that’s coming up. I bet you’re very excited. 

Angela: I am, I am. It’s, I have a physical copy of it now, so it feels much more real and Yeah, it’s just, it’s an exciting time. 

Cait: I know that I will say that, Go ahead, Geri. I was 

Shari: gonna say, I will say that I was lucky enough to read an early copy of Angela’s book, and it is amazing I think it’s going to help a lot of 

Angela: people.

Thank you. 

Cait: Thank you. Yeah. And I think both books in combination would be great gifts for people who are going through this experience and struggling with religious trauma and see PTSD, which is what we’re talking about today. So Laura, could you tell us what CPTSD means and kind of just give us like a basic [00:03:00] for people who don’t understand why that’s what that is and how it’s different from.

Laura: PTSD. Sure. So CPTSD stands for Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or what we might call simply complex trauma. It’s different from PTSD in that it is much more complex as the name suggests. A way that I like to describe it with clients is I oftentimes refer to PTSD as single incident trauma and complex trauma is that more complex where we’re looking at not just specific events that have happened, but maybe a longstanding inescapable.

Threat, overwhelm where this is just kind of your normal every day to day life. It doesn’t necessarily mean that there were big things that happened, but it’s that pervasive sense of threat and overwhelm. Although you can have big things happen within that. I think the other [00:04:00] piece. Excuse me.

That’s important to recognize is that trauma, like, so trauma is, or religious trauma is trauma, which means that it resides in our body the same way that other trauma might. Trauma from war, developmental trauma, sexualized violence, things like that. The reason I say that is because it gives us so many resources.

and research that really helps us then learn how to resolve how that trauma lives in our body. Trauma is anything that’s too much, too fast, too soon overwhelms our ability to cope and come back to a place of safety. And so it’s important to recognize that because it means trauma is very subjective.

What is traumatic for you may or may not be and vice versa. And when that comes to religion, The word religion then becomes a bit of an adjective just to help us better understand where that trauma may have originated from. And it might also help us in the [00:05:00] recovery process, as we’re going, hey, you know, a lot of religious trauma folks need support in some certain areas that perhaps like veterans from war may not and vice versa.

It’s really also important to recognize that trauma does not equal PTSD or CPTSD. When that trauma energy gets stuck in our bodies, and when I say energy, I’m not talking like woo woo, crystals, whatever, I’m talking about literal like cortisol, adrenaline, other hormones. When that gets stuck in our bodies, over time, if it’s not resolved or released, it can turn into a diagnosis such as PTSD or CPTSD.

And that, that’s an important differentiation. And in addition, it can also lead to a host of other mental health diagnoses and disorders. So yeah, there’s so much more that I could go into, but I’ll leave it at that and let me know if you have questions. Yeah. 

Cait: That makes. [00:06:00] So much sense, and I think I resonate a lot with everything you said, because, you know, the way I was brought up, there was a lot of traumatic stuff happening, and I didn’t know it at the time, over a long period of time, and so I didn’t know anything different.

Yeah. Psychologist told me that my body has never been in a state where my nervous system is regulated. And so I don’t know what the baseline is. So trying to get back to that, it’s difficult when you don’t have that. So that thought, that idea of like, it’s being in your body it’s something that I’m exploring more because I think that’s really healing.

And also I think. I’ve heard someone say that when you go through a traumatic event and someone is there right afterwards to help you or to hold you or to be there with you, your likelihood of having a PTSD results, is much lower. And so I thought that’s interesting that, you know, it can depend on [00:07:00] what happens right 

Laura: after the event.

Yeah, there’s a variety of factors that determine if it will be threatening and overwhelming to a person. Most of those factors are far beneath our conscious brain. We’re talking things like environmental DNA, you know, our histories, our access to care and coping and safety. And so That’s going to look different for every single body because we can be experienced, we could be siblings in the same house, in the same church, the same messages, and one of us comes out very traumatized and the other person really isn’t.

And so I think It’s important to consider that trauma is very subjective, but oftentimes what we need after that event has settled and our bodies know that we’re safe is that we do need a way to both release that energy and find safety. And oftentimes that comes in the form of a human connection, whether that’s having [00:08:00] somebody physically there or being able to call or text or drive to somebody.

That is what can be really helpful. Now that doesn’t guarantee that it won’t result in PTSD or CPTSD, but we can look and research would back this up to say the likelihood significantly decreases when we do have that safe connection and or access to coping mechanisms that help us or give us the opportunity to return to a place of safety.

Right. Yeah, and 

Cait: I think that, you know, it comes into play with coaching, which you both do, I think in your professional lives. You, you work with religious trauma survivors. PTSD survivors and, um, being that person when you’re working with long term trauma, I’m sure is kind of a wild place to be is, is you’ve gone through something for yourself and now you’re working professionally and you’re seeing this [00:09:00] and other people and helping them and being that person of stability with them.

So I’m interested to know more about coaching Angela, like what do you see with The clients that you work with, the symptoms that they’re expressing to you that show you that they have CP, CPTSD. 

Angela: Yeah, it’s really interesting because most of the people that I’m working with, most of my one on one deconstruction clients don’t have a diagnosis.

And it’s really because There have been typically, they’re harmed by people in power. So whether it’s pastors or parents or unfortunately, counselors who are not actually trained in therapy, right, but are more like pastoral counseling they’ve been really harmed by people in those roles. And so a lot of times my clients don’t want anything to do with therapy because that is part of the arena where they have been harmed.

And so a lot of the work that I do is. [00:10:00] Kind of listening between the lines and reflecting some things creating some safety for them to get to the place where they can say, Oh yeah, I was in a cult shoot. I didn’t know that. Then they’re ready to go to therapy. So I always start at the beginning by saying, Hey, you know, I don’t know if you have a therapist now, if you’re open to it, but that’s something that at some point.

You’re probably going to want don’t feel pressured to do it, but just know that when I bring that up, it’s not because you’ve done anything wrong. It’s because it would be a good time to bring in that extra layer of support. So I see the typical you know, I see the typical concerns and the kind of the symptoms that come out of high control religions and cults and whatnot.

But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the person is aware of them. And so because I’m not in a medical role, I’m not in a therapeutic role I’m not in a place to say, Hey, by the way, what it sounds like is PTSD. Right? So there’s a lot of [00:11:00] conversations about what do you think that is? Where’s that coming from?

Is, is that something you, one that I use a lot with parents is, is that something you want for your children? Is that something you would want for your partner? If you could go back, would you want to experience the same thing again? And it really is normalizing this conversation about the fact that what happened.

Wasn’t good. So that they are then less resistant to getting good therapy. And I always send it to someone who has religious trauma specific experience and training because it is, yes, it is PTSD, but like Laura said, it’s There’s a different layer when there’s this idea that if you don’t get your, your, your spiritual life, right, you’re going to be in eternal hell and you’re going to take all of your friends and family and everyone you’ve ever talked to with you.

Like it’s just a whole different level of pressure. 

Laura: It’s so 

Cait: true. And I, and I. I feel like [00:12:00] we’re still lacking a lot of people who have this specialized training or background in religious trauma. I think it’s changing. I think more people are speaking up and getting, we’re getting more therapists and coaches who are trauma informed.

But yeah, it’s, it’s kind of like a newer, At least when I left 10 years ago, I didn’t feel like there was anybody who could help me. So now it feels like I’m able to get a therapist in my town who knows what I’m talking about, and I don’t have to over explain what my background is. So, yeah, I’m really glad that people like you are speaking up more and helping people.

I’m sure it’s tiring work, but really important work. 

I was gonna say Laura, With therapy and coaching, I think you’ve done both in your work as well. Are you finding that There’s a difference for you, how you speak with clients [00:13:00] in those roles. 

Laura: So the short answer is no really truly the only reason that I continue practicing therapy is because I am also a licensure supervisor, which allows me to provide supervision to other people who are in the process of getting licensed.

And I love that as a part of my job, but in terms of how I am as a therapist. therapist and how I am as a coach is the same. And part of that, or the majority of that is I have a lot of advanced trauma training that is offered to not just therapists. So what modalities are starting to do is come up with certification tracks that are very comprehensive.

trauma informed, where you can get really good body based trauma resolution training. And you don’t have to be a therapist. You could be a coach, you could be a therapist, you could be a massage therapist, you could be a teacher, you could, you know, like a variety of different ways. So in that way, [00:14:00]that, that’s how, what I am across the board.

And. And I, and I prefer it that way, but I, I tend to even, even though I do have clients in Tennessee I tend to work more from a coaching model, which tends to be a bit more of a wellness model rather than a medical model of symptom reduction and things like that. I also am not a proponent of diagnosing necessarily.

I don’t think that that often must happen in order to validate what a person is experiencing. Although I do know that some people find it to be incredibly helpful to have the diagnosis because it does help them feel like they can organize what their experiences are and even better find resources and coaches or therapists to work with them.

All of the practitioners that work at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery are, have that advanced trauma training. And. Like 95 percent of them also [00:15:00] have backgrounds in mental health though they’re not using their license with their clients, you know, currently but we’ve chosen that model because of the wellness model of coaching and just kind of some other things that other ways that coaching affords us opportunities to reach more clients so there’s more accessibility than therapy might Allow them.

Now, there’s some downsides to coaching in terms of ethics and accountability and boards and credentialing, and we’re very open about that because There’s not a board that can have a disciplinary committee, you know, for coaching and we take that seriously, especially when, like Angela said, we’re working with clients who have come out of dynamics of power and control where they haven’t been safe one on one with people or under leadership.

And so that’s definitely something we take into consideration as well. I 

Cait: think that’s a good point. And it’s, it’s such a great point about. how there’s a variety of [00:16:00]support, right? Because you’re right. Therapy isn’t accessible for everyone. It can be very expensive. It can be too far away. It can be all sorts of reasons why you might not be able to go to a therapist or you might not understand what therapy is at first.

And so coaching might be a way in to get some support. And I think making use of all the people that you can to like, as you heal from this, it’s really important. Going back to this idea of, of. PTSD, CPTSD is, is a whole body thing, right? It’s, it’s not just in our heads, it affects our physical health as well.

I’m wondering, Angela, do you see in your clients the effects of that when they’re talking with you, or are they talking, how are they discussing what they’re experiencing? If they’re deconstructing, if they’re expressing things that you see as religious trauma does it come out in a physical way? 

Angela: [00:17:00] It does.

And, and that’s such a great distinction because I, I think that a lot of the critics of deconstruction and religious trauma recovery are saying, it’s just your opinion. It’s all in your head. It’s really condescending stuff, right? So yeah, so becoming aware of the fact that these experiences are still lingering in your body.

I think is a real game changer for people. I know for me with my own PTSD diagnosis, it’s exactly what Laura said. I was one of those people who it was. It was really helpful to have that label and that’s the whole reason I pursued testing and did some things because my, my trauma response is to try to hustle it out and try to just like push, push, push, push, push, right?

And that’s not everybody’s response, but that was my response. And so. By getting a label, by understanding that this is something that happened to me, not something that [00:18:00] like the symptoms I was feeling weren’t something that I had done to myself, helped me just take a step back and be like, okay, that wasn’t my fault.

These mistakes over here I’ve made, but that thing that happened and the way it’s lingering and messing with me every day, that wasn’t actually my fault. And even now I get a little chucked up, right? Because there’s this, there’s this grief over what life could have been like if those things hadn’t happened.

Yeah. So yeah, a lot of, again, a lot of people come to the table for, for coaching without even being connected to our bodies. Without even acknowledging that this brain fog or you know, the, the, my inability to stay in my body when I’m having sex with my partner is related to trauma, not just a bad sex life.

Right. Right. And so, yeah, I think again, it’s, [00:19:00] it’s that trying to figure out how to get through something. Without actually knowing what it is that allows us to look outside and, and not in our body and just be like, well, this is just how I am. I should try harder. I should be better. And that, that shame.

That, that is rooted in a lot of the trauma is way louder than we have our body yelling at us. Like our body may be yelling at us and saying, please pay attention to me. But we’ve learned, we’ve been taught to turn that down and turn up the external voices and we’ve learned. That just allows it to be stuck for longer.

And then we’re shoving other stuff in there too. And it’s getting stuck. So it is really complex and multilayered, but I think that one of the primary steps towards healing is, is learning how to connect with your body again. But that’s not easy. I can say that in one sentence, but that is not an easy thing 

Laura: to 

Cait: do.[00:20:00]

It’s so hard. And I tell, you know, I feel like I, I’ve been talking about this, writing about this for so long, and I still struggle with dissociating. And I used to think, oh, that one time. You know, this traumatic thing happened and I, I felt out of my body that was the only time I’ve dissociated, but I think that it’s more nuanced than that.

And I realized after some more like trauma therapy that I’ve dissociated a lot more than just that one time. And I, I’m curious, I think a lot of people who are deconstructing or coming out of. Church abuse, et cetera, are experiencing dissociation from their bodies and not paying attention to all those cues that you mentioned, because for me, you know, anxiety, but also like just being in a church building or And just like someone praying, I have to leave the room.

It’s just like, it brings me to a dark place that other people, it doesn’t bring them to that place. But [00:21:00] for me, it does. And so I think that ties in the subjective aspect and also like how our bodies are telling us we need to do this other thing and take care of. Your body because it’s all connected. Yeah, I 

Angela: would even say that unhealthy religion exploits bible passages to teach us to dissociate.

Like, think about yeah, yeah, so think about what you’ve been taught about dying to self. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Angela: What you’ve been taught about the heart is deceitful. Yeah. What you’ve been taught about, especially with purity culture, like desire like our bodies. And this is not, I’m not saying this is what I believe I’m saying this is what we’re taught.

Our bodies lead us to sin. And so we have to push away all those natural urges and become sanctified. 

Laura: That’s dissociating. [00:22:00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you’re so right. It’s already in your inner voice. That’s dissociating. 

Cait: Well, and my mind is blown. I’m going to have to, like, think about that because, because it is, it’s like literally you’re taught to do this.

Yeah, 

Shari: and it’s even worse, I think from one perspective for women because we’re taught that not just like our, our sexual feelings are bad, our bodies inherently are bad because we can lead men to sin and possibly even lose their salvation just because our bodies exist. Like that is traumatic in and of itself.

Cait: Yeah, you’re told like your body is just a dangerous Right. And so like, you don’t inhabit yourself, at least that’s what I experienced. But Laura, what do you think about that? Like, do you run into this with clients as well? 

Laura: Yeah. I like the physical manifestations and just dissociating like that. Yeah. Yeah, [00:23:00]absolutely.

One thing that just like a quick differentiation because they go together is. When I talk, like, faith deconstruction tends to be a more philosophical concept, like we’re, we’re moving from a philosophical and then trauma resolution is physiological, but they go together, right? So, like, simply just saying, I don’t believe this.

Or I’ve changed my belief on this doesn’t necessarily change how our body responds to those messages, teachings, and practices, but oftentimes it’s the, the cognitive piece, the deconstruction piece that leads us towards. paying attention to our body, understanding when we’re dissociating, recognizing, wow, I’m really triggered in this moment.

And here’s the physiological pieces that are going along with that. Where is the additional support that I need to work with like the trauma that may or may not be there. And so I do find a lot of clients [00:24:00] Especially people in high control religions that are women and children really have to gravitate towards that dissociation or freeze response and fawn response.

There’s oftentimes not other options for them. And that does not stop simply leaving a church or saying, I no longer believe this thing. Those are things that are embodied. They’re ingrained in us. And it. Colors the way that we relate to other people. It colors the way that we interact with the world, how we see ourselves, how we communicate.

And so that’s oftentimes like helping clients recognize, Oh, here’s what’s happening. And really demonstrating and offering them like an invitation to move into compassion is really helpful because. Oftentimes when that happens, when we have that trauma response of say freezing, so dissociating, we blame ourselves, right?

Like why, why can’t I just get [00:25:00] over this? Why am I triggered again? And what we’re forgetting in that moment is that there was a time when that response literally kept us alive. And so our body hasn’t quite caught enough. Caught up yet to say like, Oh, we’re not actually in danger because our body works off of familiarity.

Okay. If a situation feels familiar, even if cognitively we’re like, yeah, that was like 12 years ago, our body’s like, Oh no, I’m back in it. And so that there’s like a disconnect there that happens when our minds like stop doing this, you know, like calm down as if that works. And our body is in this different physiological state.

That’s where that shame can really exist because we know we’re here in the present moment and our body is back there in the past. So adding in compassion can oftentimes help us bridge that gap and, and then it gives us the ability to make choices of What do I want to do next? Is [00:26:00] there somebody safe that I could connect to?

Is there a coping mechanism I have that I can employ in this moment that will help me feel even 1 percent safer and more stable? Well, yeah, I 

Cait: do that a lot. What kind of, what are those grounding? What are some things that our listeners? Right. I think the best practice might use just like quick grounding exercise or something that can help just to practice if they don’t have access to therapy at this moment.

Laura: Yeah. So what we do, so the reason we might use a grounding tool or skill is because We are sometimes everywhere, but here in the present moment and when we’re triggered, especially Like we’re just we’re a million miles away You know We’re trying our body and our body and brain is in survival mode going like how do I get away from this threat?

Even if there isn’t an actual threat even the perceived threat or the remembered threat that can send us into that space of activation. [00:27:00] And so in those moments, we don’t have a lot of cognitive ability or willpower to sit down and have a conversation where we can rationally talk things out or talk to ourselves and be like, Oh, you know what?

That’s not what’s really happened. We are in that activated space. And so we need. Quick things that will help bring us back that don’t require a lot of brain power. And so honestly, I’m a big fan of just using your surroundings. So it could be as simple as I’m going to start literally naming every single thing that I can see in this space.

Or you could pick a color green and I’m going to look around my space. I’m going to notice, okay, there’s the green plant and there’s the green photo frame and there, you know, and. What we’re doing in that moment is we’re focusing on what’s around us, because it’s very, very difficult, dare I say, impossible to be here focusing and also dissociated out [00:28:00] there, right?

And so what we’re trying to do is get ourselves back into this space so that we can actually have choice of what we want or what we need. So anything that helps us get, that’s what I go for. What’s the simplest thing you can do? It literally could be. Using your sense of touch. I’m going to touch variety of surfaces.

Okay. I’m noticing this is really cool. I’m noticing this is really rough or this is really soft, but really using your eyes can be very, very helpful. And, and that’s something that I teach a lot of clients, which sounds so simple, but in the moment it can be very difficult. And so what I always encourage.

anybody to do is to practice far before you’d ever be in a crisis situation. So take, you know, when your Apple watch buzzes and tells you it’s time to stand up. Take one minute, you know, as you’re standing and, and do that exercise. And then in an hour, when it tells you to stand up again, take another minute and, and do those [00:29:00] exercises.

It’s like, we’re building muscle memory to say, okay I, my body knows how to do this. My body knows how to feel a sense of groundedness so that when I’m in a crisis situation, I now have a kind of a natural, like, Oh, I know what to do. Like, I know how to do this. I know how to look around myself. I know how to find green or whatever it is.

And so we’re really looking to build that muscle memory. Very similar to like, you know a football game or something. The players don’t go and just play on a Sunday and then meet back up the next Sunday. Like those plays are ingrained their bodies just know what to do because they’ve been practicing over and over and over before the game so that when the game comes.

They go, they just do their thing. And that’s what we’re looking for with something like the grounding 

Cait: piece. Like making it a habit so that you can go there when you’re triggered and you can’t, you don’t feel like you’re thinking clearly sometimes, at least for me, I spiral out. [00:30:00] And looking around the room, I learned this new one where you can look around and see everything that’s cozy.

And so for me, I love like soft blankets and candles. And so I’m putting that in my space. And then I can notice, oh, I’m, for me, it just communicates safety, I think and that’s really helpful. And then another thing is like literally getting on the ground and just like feeling my body with gravity and like, oh, I’m here in this room on this spinning planet.

And that can help me feel safe. Grounded, like literally, so I appreciate that. I just 

Shari: learned a new one, literally yesterday, where like, you take up, you pick up like a tennis ball, and you throw it in the air, and you’re catching it, because you, you cannot be dissociated in the moment where you’re supposed to be focused on catching this ball, 

Cait: right?

So, I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, it’s all kind of like, you know, using your body, I guess. 

Laura: Yes. 

Cait: It is. Being in your body. [00:31:00]

Laura: And 

Angela: it’s really compassionate to try different methods because some attempts to be embodied are actually going to land right on where your trauma is sitting. So, for example you know, a lot, a lot of people I know will do tapping, right?

But for me, tapping my fingers on my chest didn’t do it, right? Like, that was triggering. But spraying a particular spray an oil or something, and really concentrating on all the different notes in that spray, that was safe. So just being compassionate and kind enough to yourself to, to not get mad when something doesn’t work, don’t, don’t put more shame in because X, Y, Z didn’t work.

Just keep exploring and trust that you’ll get there. And the things that don’t work, it’s not a, it’s not a mistake. It’s just not working and that’s okay. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Cait: Yeah. [00:32:00] I love how you both use the word compassion because I think when you’re coming out of a high control religion or, um, somewhere where, you know, abuse has been happening, um, you don’t know how to show yourself compassion.

That’s a, that’s a big barrier and so just practicing being compassionate to yourself the way that you would be compassionate to other people is, you know, important to, to keep doing. I keep telling myself that, so. Well, can we go back to the idea of, Laura, you were differentiating between religious trauma resolution and faith deconstruction and how, what I, what I think you’re saying is they’re both different circles in this Venn diagram, but they have some overlap of people and people’s experiences.

Very much. So I’m wondering if we could talk a little bit about faith deconstruction, because I think [00:33:00] that term has been. Used a lot, it’s becoming one of those words that people either love or hate, and so it’s, it’s creating this binary already. But, correct me if I’m wrong, Angela, your summit, is that kind of geared towards people who are?

In faith deconstruction. Can you talk a little bit about that and what, what your, your goal is with that kind of work. 

Angela: Yeah. So I’m glad you asked that because as many different ways as there are to deconstruct, there are definitions for deconstruction. Right. And I think that’s part of what you said about the binary.

Is it good? Is it evil? Like, I think a lot of that comes from Using the same word to mean many different things and, and not understanding that there isn’t one agreed upon definition. Right? So you know, the roots of the phrase deconstruction and the word deconstruction is deeply rooted in the philosophical, but in a more sort of [00:34:00] community based context, kind of what, what culturally is happening now.

It definitely moves way beyond just, do I believe these particular pieces of information? It gets into embodiment, it gets into healing, it gets into a lot of sense of self, like who, Who actually am I as a human being? And what does that mean? And so it, it goes into a lot of different layers of healing and is really complex and probably every deconstruction coach or therapist you talk to is going to have a slightly different Definition.

And that’s okay, too. I mean, that’s you know, insisting that there’s one right path that everybody who’s deconstructing should follow needs to be deconstructed, right? Like, we really need to be challenging that, right? So, like, for the summit, one of the things that I do, I work really hard to do is to bring in people who have different views on deconstruction.

You know, some people are like, burn it all down and start over. And other people say, well, let’s just pick one thing at a time and go through it. Others will say deconstruction doesn’t [00:35:00] actually have anything to do with trauma. I personally haven’t seen that in my practice, right? Like Even if it’s a very, very low level things trapped in your body there’s some layers of, there’s some, sometimes you peel back things and you find things that you didn’t know were there.

So, we try to bring a variety of experiences, making sure that we’re not centering white voices because deconstruction’s a pretty white space. Yeah. Which, Only echoes these really unhealthy imbalanced systems that we’re trying to move away from. So just making sure that in one way or another hopefully everyone sees a little piece of their story with the speakers and the panels that we have, even if there’s no way to represent the fullness of everyone’s story.

Cait: Yeah, it’s I think the author was going to say, I’m going to say her name wrong, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, who, who’d give that speech [00:36:00] about women. And she said, there is nothing, something like there’s nothing more dangerous than the single story. And if I think we, we come out of a fundamentalism where there’s only one right way to live.

And so when we’re deconstructing that. It’s really easy to fall into, okay, now there’s only one right way to heal. Yeah. And, and that speaks to, you know, our discussion about grounding exercises. There’s many different ways to do that. Different kinds of therapists and coaches to see. There’s different ways to get the support you need.

And everyone who goes through this is going to need different things. And that’s okay, and that’s, that’s really good actually. Because if it was all one way, we would just fall into another toxic kind of system, right? So I think yeah, I’m going to keep thinking about that because I think healing, maybe healing can’t happen.

if [00:37:00] we’re still forcing that black and white thinking on our healing process. 

Laura: Yeah, that’s great 

Angela: insight. 

Laura: I don’t know. I, I, I think that I think when I say that like deconstruction is a philosophical process. Part of what I’m recognizing there is that Trauma is embodied, you know, and like we don’t think it away.

And when we, you know, when the, when the concept of deconstruction first was kind of like introduced into the scene, it was not exvangelicals. It, it’s like, it has been happening for hundreds of years. I think it’s Derrida, who is the first person who like. Introduce deconstruction. And it’s this pulling apart, like, and just like, why do I believe this way?

Like, what, who am I? Is this helpful for me? So I think we, we also deconstruct like the [00:38:00]binaries of like good and bad and things like that. I think why it feels important to differentiate is because doing that work is extremely helpful and it’s necessary and it does heal, but it doesn’t necessarily.

impact the trauma in some cases, it reveals where the trauma is. Like, and so I think that’s why I, I appreciate being able to differentiate, but also see how they are very closely linked because I would say I don’t have an exact percentage, but I know it’s probably at least 90 percent of my clients are coming in.

Going, I need to deconstruct my faith and that’s the, the entry point into like what this complex healing is. It’s so multifaceted. And so we are healing on a mind level, on a body level, on a soul level. And so it can’t, I don’t think that [00:39:00] it can be taken apart. I think it has to be together. And yet it’s.

I’ve found in like social media spaces and things like that, helping people also differentiate between the two can be really helpful because they’re like, but I don’t believe this anymore. And it’s like, I know, I know, I know you don’t, but yeah, your body is still reacting because that’s where like the trauma is residing.

It’s the. physiological piece. And sometimes that can then reduce that shame of like, why am I still having a physiological response to something I have deconstructed? But I think it also then invites us to like, continue to like, deconstruct for the rest of our lives, like hold concepts. loosely to say, I can always ask questions and then I can always explore and who I am today can be very different from who I am in five years from now.

And you know, like, I think that’s a really beautiful thing that can feel really scary, but it also gives us [00:40:00] so much permission that is very different than high control religions and cults. And, and environments like that where we are supposed to just have like this sense of certainty. And this is what we believe and we do not waver from it, no matter how much it harms people.

And that, yeah, it just feels I feel particularly drawn to those because at least for me, and I’m, I know I’m not alone in this, like I was sold so many. Lies essentially of like what things were and come to find out like, Oh, it’s actually the opposite of that. Or, you know, like, no, this thing does exist or, you know, whatever it was.

And so there, there’s even that piece of it where I love being able to talk about some of like the, the technicalities, because I think. All of us and probably the people we work with and come in contact with are like, I just want to know, like, what’s real, like what, what is actually going on. And I think [00:41:00] that’s it’s a very it can be a very confusing thing to come out of this and, and to know, like, I’ve got to deconstruct literally everything in my life and ask questions.

But I think that’s such a beautiful thing to do. I love that. I love uncertainty. 

Angela: Now. Now is the key, right? Like when you first start, it’s terrifying. Yeah. And I mean, I would even think that, you know, the biggest overlaps that I’ve seen are normalizing what’s normal, which sounds redundant, but like your normal body response, your normal response to trauma, your normal response to stress and uncertainty, like Both therapy and good collaborative deconstruction coaching will do that.

They’ll normalize things that are completely off limits in the unhealthy spaces that you came from. And then I think the other piece is embracing that messiness and uncertainty. One of the phrases that I use a lot in my coaching is embodied curiosity, right? So [00:42:00] we’re going to be curious, but to be curious, you have to acknowledge that you don’t have the right answers and air quotes around, right?

Like don’t have the one right answer. And also you can’t just go in with your brain. Like when we really get excited about exploring and about not knowing, it usually means that we’re all there. Okay. Right. It’s not just I’m in my fight, flight, freeze, fawn mode, trying to figure out what the thing is that’s going to help me be safe.

I’m actually in my body and saying, Oh wow, it’s kind of fun to not know. It’s our own little Alice in Wonderland thing like, Oh, that’s curiouser and curiouser. Cool. Let’s just keep rolling. That doesn’t, that no longer triggers that no longer triggers that unsafe feeling that uncertainty used to trigger.

Laura: Yeah. Yeah.

Cait: Yeah, that’s interesting 

Shari: because I, like, I remember when I first started deconstructing, and this was long before I realized that I had religious trauma myself, but I just [00:43:00] remember being able to say the words, I don’t know, like that was so hard. And I had to make a very conscious effort to be able to say those words because my body did not want to say it.

And it wasn’t until later on that I realized my body doesn’t want to say it because it’s never been safe for me to say those words. 

Angela: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. 

Cait: That’s so I think that’s so true. 

Laura: Yeah. 

Cait: I, I can like resonate a lot with that. I think, I’m trying to go back in my memories and think about deconstruction versus, you know, trauma, resolution, and I do think they’re different and I do think there’s overlap and like they went back and forth.

For me as I was processing, cause I was stuck in this situation until I was 25, I didn’t get out till then. And it took both of those for me to like move and leave. Like I had to physically leave, but I also had to mentally get to a place [00:44:00] where I could accept that I needed to leave. So it’s, it’s both, it’s both and yeah, 

Laura: yeah, 

Angela: yeah.

It’s almost like when we talk about getting healthier physically. Do we exercise or do we put better foods into our body? Well, if we can do both, we’re more likely to experience a transformation that sticks rather than, Oh, I’m five pounds overweight and I have to go be at this event tomorrow. So I’m going to sweat it out at the gym tonight.

And then tomorrow after the event. I’m gonna eat five slices of pizza an hour until I just am in a food coma, right? Like, that’s, that’s not necessarily developing healthy habits and a healthy sense of self. I don’t. We all do it. Trust me, Ben Jerry’s was a huge part of both my trauma recovery and deconstruction.

I probably owe them a huge debt at this point. But yeah, like, it’s like, Choosing one thing that works right now is wonderful. Like whatever, whatever you can do [00:45:00] to start moving towards the healing that you’re longing for, do it. And also know that there may become a time where you can add something else.

Whether it’s you know, I have a, I have a massage therapist who has also gone through a lot of trauma. So working with her was just, it’s just another ally I can bring into the conversation with my therapist and my psychiatric nurse practitioner who manages my meds for me and like my accountability partner, like all those other people.

But I couldn’t start out with all those people. Like I could barely get through therapy. barely get through a therapy session without having to spend five hours under a weighted blanket binging Netflix trying to recover. Yeah. So again, that compassion, like yes, get support. And also don’t force yourself to do all the things like be compassionate and just let your journey unfold as it wants to unfold.

Cait: Yeah. I mean, I, it took me so long to get to therapy a, because You know, I [00:46:00] couldn’t afford it. And because like, I was told that therapy was evil, and so it took me a while to deconstruct that idea and like, Oh, I actually could use this. But I think for our listeners, I’m really thinking about them because If you’re just getting into this idea that you might have religious trauma or you might have been through a high control religion or if anything of what we’re speaking of is resonating, it can be terrifying to make that step and to say, Oh, I need to start a healing journey or you might not even have the words to say that.

I think it can be, it can be really scary, but I also think it’s really courageous. To do that for yourself and to realize you deserve, you deserve that, you deserve to heal and to find. A beautiful life. I think it really does lead. I don’t think where I’m not sure I’m ever going to be like completely, [00:47:00] you know, neutral about my past or like completely healed in that sense of like I’ve reached an end goal.

I never have to think about it at all. But 10 years ago where I was like completely dissociated and having panic attacks all the time. Like I’ve I’ve come so far. And so I think I’ve been able to create. a day to day life that’s way more sustainable and enjoyable. And I love my life. I couldn’t, I couldn’t have said that, you know, over a decade ago.

So I just want to give some hope. And I was wondering if, if each of you could say something about what you want people who might have complex PTSD, like, what do you want them to know at the beginning of their journey that it’s going to get better, that it’s going to take time? Like, what, what do you say when, when people come to you and they’re just like, I’m not even sure I can handle this.

Laura: Yeah. I mean, what you said right there is part of it, this, this might get better before it gets, or sorry, might get worse [00:48:00] before it gets better. I’m a really big proponent of at the very beginning, letting people know, like we will not go faster than your nervous system allows us to, but we also won’t go slower.

Like we will go at the pace that your body is. Allowing us to go and and I always like to say to there actually isn’t an end goal. We’re not looking to like get to this finish line and say there I’m healed. I’m never going to be impacted by this again because that just doesn’t exist. And so to help reframe, like what is healing?

This daily process, it happens in the little tiny moments that help happens in the little different choices that we make, or the little ways that we lean into more support or coping or whatever it might be. And, and that oftentimes that in and of itself is a lot to take in because it doesn’t match kind of this colloquial idea of like, what is therapy?

What is coaching? What is healing? What [00:49:00] is trauma? And so. It’s helping us like slow it way down and be like, we’re, we’re going to do this at the pace of your body. We’re going to try to make it as safe as possible because we, my goal is that there will be a day where you don’t need me. Like you have the skills to be able to do this yourself.

I’m here to support you. But like, I’m not your guru. I’m not, you know, like I’m not master of your life. I will help, help you navigate this. And then. And then the goal of this is to live, to actually just live in the ups and downs of life. 

Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I would echo kind of a similar sentiment. I, I would hope that people would just be able to understand that the, the, the biggest healing I’ve seen in myself and with a lot of people starts with a, I don’t know.

Like, I don’t, I don’t [00:50:00] know how to fix this. I don’t know what to do next. Sometimes even I don’t know what I did wrong, which usually isn’t true, but like, just the, I don’t know. But what I do know is this isn’t working. Right? Like that’s pressure creates change. And so if you’re in that place where it feels like the pressure of whatever the heck is going on is like, you know, two seconds away from just smashing you, that is a really good place to start healing or to continue healing.

If maybe you’ve already done some I know it absolutely feels like you’re never going to get out of any of this. And I just, I hope that you can take from our stories and from a lot of the other stories that are out there is that there’s time for you to find some healing and you don’t have to find it all today, right?

Like, it’s not a light switch. It’s not Google Maps. Like, you cannot put in the destination you want [00:51:00] to be and get the five steps and follow them for the next five hours and be there. So just again, be compassionate. Even if it feels really weird and selfish, if you’re coming out of a toxic religious space or high control religion, or even abusive relationships, what feels selfish, That’s probably normal and healthy.

You just were told that it wasn’t. Yeah. If you could go 10%, if you could be 10 percent more compassionate and more extravagantly love yourself than the point that you feel selfish at, you’re probably going to feel better over time. It just feels really painful right now because you’re trying to change your conditioning and you’re trying to heal things that your body is terrified of letting out into the open.

Cait: Yeah, that word selfish. That’s a really good 

Shari: point. Yeah, I just remember the first time I made myself a priority in my own [00:52:00] life, just like, I guess this goes back to what you both were saying about self compassion. I did not have that for myself. I just remember feeling very selfish and I kind of compounded and going, well, You’re not supposed to do this.

This is why you feel selfish. Right. 

Laura: But 

Shari: it was just getting to that point of normalizing that prioritizing myself isn’t actually selfish. It just feels that way because that’s the way I’ve been trained to think, which is, I think that’s very common for a lot of people coming out of high control environments.

If you’ve never been allowed to make yourself a priority, of 

Angela: course, you’re going to feel selfish. When you do.

Yeah. I think it was Amanda Waldron who said in one of our conversations, when you start feeling that way, we start feeling selfish or you know, start feeling shame and, and all of that. Ask who does it serve for me to feel this way? And that is like a brick to the forehead. Like, Whoa, [00:53:00] wait a second.

Who does this actually serve? Yeah. Is it me? Is it someone who I actually want to 

Laura: prioritize over myself? 

Angela: Is that a good thing? Like, it just, it’s a bit of a jolt that takes it out of the, what I’m doing wrong and gets it into a, it just shifts the perspective a little bit. And that’s been 

Laura: really helpful for me.

Yeah, 

Cait: especially when you’ve been taught, you know, you are selfish if you do things for yourself or if you take care of yourself, especially for women, I think you’re told to sacrifice everything for your husband or in my case, for my father or for your church or whatever. It’s just like, oh, this, we need to reframe the word selfish.

My therapist keeps saying, imagine you’re in an airplane, and the oxygen masks come down, you have to put yours on first before you can help other people. Because I feel like, for me, it’s like, I must help other people, but I [00:54:00] can’t do that if I’m not alive. Or if I’m not, you know, thriving in my own life, I can’t help other people.

So I think that’s good for everybody to remember, because it’s hard when you’re shifting that thought process. I don’t want to keep you past our time, but I’m hoping each of you could say where we can find more of your resources. And Laura, I want you to go first. And I think everybody should pick up.

When Religion Hurts You, Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High Control Religion. It’s one of my favorite books to recommend to survivors. And so, Laura, could you, could you share where we can find you online? 

Laura: Yeah, thank you. My book, is out everywhere that books are sold. I always encourage people to check with their local bookstores and see if they can get it for you.

But it’s available on audio book or, you know, hard copy. My website is drlaureanderson. com and that’s kind of the hub [00:55:00] of where you can find everything. I have a sub stack. And what else? Oh, I’m the co host of a couple podcasts, the Wise Jezebels and Sunday School Dropouts. And so those are, we have our own pages for that.

I’m on social media, most often on Instagram at Dr. Laura E. Anderson. I apparently have a TikTok, but I, my social media person runs it. So I don’t know if there’s anything on there, but feel free to follow along. And my company is the center for trauma resolution and recovery. That’s our website, trauma resolution and recovery.

com. We’ve got practitioners who can work with you all over the world. They’re trauma trained specializing in a myriad of things as it pertains to religious trauma cults, all the things and we offer free inquiry calls. So if you want to find a practitioner of choice, schedule an inquiry call with them and then you can decide if they’re a good fit or not.

But again, that’s trauma resolution, recovery. [00:56:00] com and you can also find us on Instagram at trauma resolution and recovery. Great. 

Cait: Yeah. So many resources. That’s awesome. 

Laura: Thank you. Thanks. Yeah. That’s a lot. You’ve done a lot of great work and I appreciate 

Cait: you. Thank you. And Angela, I’m also excited about your book.

It’s coming out on February 20th, I think you said. You tell us a little bit about that and where else we can find you. 

Angela: Yeah. So the easiest place to find me is my website, AngelaJHarrington. com. And it’s Harrington, H E R R. I N G T O N. There’s information there about the book and blog and coaching and all the different things.

The, the thing I’m most excited about with this book is I worked really hard to write a book that doesn’t tell people what to believe but instead gives them tools and practices and a loose process for moving through deconstruction. So not necessarily how to deconstruct, but how to explore. Whether it’s trauma or, or kind of head [00:57:00] knowledge or family relationships, there’s sort of a, a framework that you can use to process things.

And so there’s lots of room to, to tackle whatever is unique in your situation. So I’m very excited about that. It will be available on February 20th. I believe the audio book will be out about the same time but you can preorder it on all the biggies also on my website. If you go to AngelaJHarrington.

com forward slash book, there’s a link where you can search for local independent bookstores in your area. So. Yes, we have to dance with the biggies but I also would love it if you would just give your local bookstore a call and ask them to order it, or if purchasing it isn’t in your budget, call your local library they have budgets for buying new books, so call them and recommend Laura’s book and my book, and let’s just start a whole section in your library about recovering from religious trauma, because goodness knows, There’s a lot of people out there who just need the, the love and support to be able to catch their breath and find some feelings.

So whatever we can do to get that out is, is amazing. 

Laura: It’s good work. 

Cait: Yeah, that’s my dream. It’s like having a library section for this kind of, these kinds of books because so many people are going through this, I think, and they just don’t even know where to start. I think so. We appreciate both of you.Thank you so much for coming on Survivors Discuss, and I know I’m going to be thinking about this for a while because my own PTSD diagnosis. So I think a lot of people can resonate with these things and when we come together and talk about it, we can heal together. So thank you both and we’ll talk soon!