On this episode, we’re with embodiment coach Tara Teng and author Rebecca Lindenbach in a conversation all about female empowerment and sexuality. Tara and Rebecca understand the devastating impacts of purity culture and are here to help us find a better way to be embodied, whole people by leaving the lies of the patriarchy behind.
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Listen on Spotify, Audible, Amazon Music, Podbean
Find Tara on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter
Find Rebecca on Instagram, Twitter
Tara’s book: https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9781506483788/Your-Body-Is-a-Revolution
Rebecca’s book: https://baremarriage.com/great-sex-rescue/
Cohosts:
Clare Heath-McIvor: kitkennedy.com
Shari A. Smith: shariasmith.com
Cait West: caitwest.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/survivorsdiscuss/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SurvivorsDiscuss
Read The Transcript
00:00.27
Shari
Hello and welcome to survivors discuss. My name is Sheri Smith I’m one of the co-hosts along with Kate West and Claire Heath mcivever and today I am really honored to be able to introduce my fellow canadians terra tang and rebecca lindenbach so welcome to the show. Um. Tara would you like to say a few words about yourself.
00:23.90
Tara Teng
Yeah, I’m so excited to be here with you guys? Um I am an embodiment coach a static practitioner and a not new author. So my first book just came out about a month and a bit ago now. So it’s called your body as a revolution and I help people come back into relationships with their bodies experience wholeness and liberation and heal all the parts of ourselves that we were taught were too much or we were forced to push aside in shame and to be able to reclaim the fullness. Of who we are our full liberation and expression in a way that feels safe to us and in alignment with our values ethics and beliefs.
01:03.62
Shari
And I will say that I finished her book yesterday and it is so good like I’m I’m still processing is so so good. Um, Rebecca do you want to introduce yourself.
01:09.88
Tara Teng
I’m so glad Well I’m so glad.
01:14.56
Rebecca
Sure I’m Rebecca linen back I am 1 of 3 authors who are behind the books. The great sex rescue and she deserves better. We do large studies of. Predominantly evangelical Christian women to assess whether or not common teachings in the church help or harm women’s marital sexual satisfaction and now self-esteem. So that’s what we do we we pretty much put the numbers to everything and we write books about it and people seem to like them. So.
01:43.26
claremcivor
That is that is amazing. Thank you, Thank you so much for for introducing us Sherry and I just want to kind of dive into a little bit of both of your biographical kind of ah story. Ah, before we continue this conversation.
01:44.39
Tara Teng
So good.
01:45.27
Shari
Please.
02:01.18
claremcivor
Um, so so Rebecca we were chatting before before hitting record you grew up evangelical. You’re still really interested in changing ah changing the system from within I’m seeing. Ah. Homeschooling is in your story as well as in sherry’s and in Kates and in mine. What about you tara also homeschooled wow but we are five foot five that is amazing. So to tell me a little bit about about what got you into this space writing about um, a really.
02:24.24
Tara Teng
Yeah hut.
02:24.74
Rebecca
Are we 5 for 5
02:26.22
Cait
Um, yeah.
02:26.62
Shari
Um, yeah.
02:38.68
claremcivor
Yeah I was going to say ballsy subject but that’s the patriarchy talking. There isn’t it because we we know Vvas are tougher. Um, ah what what got like it’s a brave move and so what what got you into this space.
02:43.78
Tara Teng
Um.
02:46.34
Cait
Um.
02:47.10
Rebecca
Um.
02:53.75
Rebecca
Um, yeah I grew up evangelical I grew up in in a very very strong Christian family and one of the things that my parents really always instilled in me was a love of actually searching for truth I was.
03:07.70
claremcivor
Is.
03:07.56
Tara Teng
Hit me.
03:10.25
Rebecca
Lucky enough and I know we’re on a podcast called survivors disgust but I feel like I’m going to kind of be the odd one out because I was actually lucky enough to have parents who even when we were in the most kind of evangelical portion of our lives. My dad’s like mantra with me was. People have been fighting about this for 2000 years there’s no way we have it right now that was what I was growing I was I was raised with that mentality I was raised with a mentality that if what we’re doing isn’t working the stupidest thing we can do is not change.
03:29.10
Shari
And.
03:29.25
Tara Teng
Well.
03:30.82
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
03:39.99
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
03:41.44
Rebecca
Right? That’s that’s the mentality I was raised with so as I grew up in Evangelicalism and I I saw bad things happening I saw the way that I was having to think about people that I loved in my my greater world in a way that I that didn’t actually mesh with how I felt God was calling me to love them I.
03:46.50
claremcivor
Um, but.
03:57.60
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
04:00.77
Rebecca
Looked at how this was logically just not working and what happened was in January of 2019. My mom who has been a relationship blogger and speaker and a sex specific blogger and speaker for years at that point actually read the bestselling book. And evangelicalism for marriage advice which was love and respect by Dr Emerson egrich you should see the text chain from January Twenty Nineteen my mom was like oh my goodness what on earth is going on here. So she read the sex chapter first and there was not a so.
04:21.83
Tara Teng
School rule.
04:23.73
claremcivor
Um, ah.
04:24.35
Cait
Um, it’s not good. Um.
04:38.34
Rebecca
Single mention of female pleasure. Not a single one the the closest that we could get was that she’s supposed to have emotional release which we’re pretty sure is like the only thing we can think of we hear emotional release I don’t know if anyone’s watched the proposal with Sandra Bullock
04:40.10
Shari
Love.
04:41.54
Tara Teng
I.
04:41.61
claremcivor
Drawgos.
04:54.99
claremcivor
Yes.
04:55.69
Shari
Yeah.
04:57.10
Rebecca
But like the scene where she’s dancing on the fire with Betty white like that’s the closest that we can think of like what emotional release might be which I’m going to be honest, sounds pretty good, but that’s not exactly what we’re looking for in a sex chapter right? And so.
05:01.50
claremcivor
Um, this.
05:03.47
Shari
Ah.
05:08.78
Shari
Yeah.
05:10.39
claremcivor
Are we sure are we sure it’s not crying during sex is that emotional release I mean it’s ah ah.
05:16.40
Rebecca
Not literally, there’s no real context. It’s anyway, but she like he says all these horrible things like if your husband is typical. He has a need. You don’t have and my personal favorite was why would you deprive him of something that.
05:21.80
Tara Teng
Um, 9
05:26.79
Tara Teng
So.
05:29.58
Cait
So yeah.
05:32.15
Rebecca
Makes that takes such a short amount of time and makes him so happy. So literally it’s like have sex because he wants it and it doesn’t take that long anyway and I’m like that’s not a good advertisement like that’s not that’s not making the point you think it is and so we started.
05:37.73
Shari
Um.
05:43.88
Cait
Um.
05:44.26
claremcivor
And no.
05:44.50
Tara Teng
Um, that’s terrible.
05:47.44
Rebecca
Reading the sex chapter We we went to read the whole book and we just saw so much stuff that was so clearly red flags for just abuse-enabling ah behavior totally telling women to totally disregard their voice to disregard their intuition to disregard their needs.
05:47.86
Tara Teng
I mean.
05:54.81
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
06:02.38
Rebecca
And enabled men to walk all over their partners in the name of Christian leadership and of course we start talking about it. We got hundreds of women telling us their stories and hundreds of men telling us their stories how they became the kind of people they didn’t want to be and so yeah, we we ended up stuff.
06:04.33
Tara Teng
Yes, oh.
06:15.80
claremcivor
Yeah now.
06:16.83
Shari
Ah, yeah.
06:16.86
Tara Teng
A.
06:21.96
Rebecca
Going to focus on the family with the hundreds of stories. They did absolutely nothing so we decided well we’re to go to serve by 20000 women then and we did ah so we did the largest study that’s ever been done on evangelical beliefs and their effects on women’s sexual satisfaction. So we asked about like orgasm rate sexual pain.
06:27.70
Shari
Love it.
06:38.29
Rebecca
Um, sexual ah subjective ratings of sexual experience such as satisfaction of the amount of arousal that you reach whether or not you want to orgasm more those kinds of things and then we measured their beliefs um about what do you believe? what? do you not did you believe it in high school. Do you believe it today and because of that we could actually see which common teachings in.
06:44.51
claremcivor
Yeah.
06:47.79
Tara Teng
Um, and.
06:54.73
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
06:58.50
Rebecca
Churches books actually led to women like having ah sexual pain disorders later in life reduced orgasm rates. It was it was. It’s really interesting.
07:03.48
Shari
Enough.
07:04.94
claremcivor
That’s and and we’re going to get into all of that like it. It is so fascinating and and watching um watching you actually. Come up against the the evangelical system and and a lot of men kind of going. No no, no like let’s push back against these women telling us what they want and you know side note um my part of my story. Um is that I was married to a gay conversion Therapy survivor and he’s now out and proud and and he’s a wonderful, Wonderful man.
07:24.22
Tara Teng
The hit.
07:35.85
claremcivor
But I often joke that if you’re going to marry a if you’re going to get married to a purity culture survivor I Highly suggest closeted or bisexual men because at least they’ve done the research on how to how to please the woman. Um, a lot of these straight evangelicals are like no God will show me how to become a sex God But anyway.
07:41.38
Tara Teng
Name it.
07:55.71
claremcivor
Ah, doesn’t happen terra terra you So you’ve said some really interesting things. You said you’re an embodiment practitioner. Did you say Hispanic practitioner is that what you said or somatic I was like Hispanic I’ve never heard somebody say that they’re hispanic practition I was like oh.
08:06.72
Tara Teng
Somatic somatic practitioner I’m not histatic. No um oh somatictic kids.
08:14.21
Shari
Ah.
08:15.60
claremcivor
That’s interesting somatic that makes a little bit more sense. Um, you’re also you were from the pageant world am I getting that right a long time ago. Ah I.
08:20.72
Tara Teng
A long time ago I was I’m I’m a former Miss Canada Yeah I’m a long time ago.
08:30.26
claremcivor
This is this is amazing. Um, the pageant world is not something that really happens in Australia and and it kind of yeah ah so we’re all period. We’re all purity culture survivors. We’ve all kind of experienced that.
08:37.82
Tara Teng
There not something that happens much here to either to be honest, it was ah go ahead. Yeah sure. Yeah.
08:48.91
claremcivor
You’re in the pageant world. Um so what kind of brought you to to being here in this kind of embodiment somatic space. Um, and obviously writing your body is a revolution amazing book.
09:01.22
Tara Teng
Yeah, thank you? Um, what brought me here is that my life started falling apart I left the church and left an unhealthy unsafe marriage almost simultaneously.
09:09.70
claremcivor
Has are um.
09:16.46
Shari
A.
09:18.48
Tara Teng
And started really putting back the pieces together of just devastation and heartbreak quite honestly and um somatics was the healing modality that I found it’s body-based work and I really just came back into relationship.
09:22.47
claremcivor
Yeah, well.
09:32.10
claremcivor
Ah.
09:34.78
claremcivor
Yeah.
09:35.39
Tara Teng
With my body and realized the way that my body had been speaking the truth about all these environments that I had been in the church my marriage everything that had been really ah, unhealthy and harmful and she started speaking to me and I so actually started listening for the first time.
09:48.83
claremcivor
Um.
09:53.26
Tara Teng
What my body had to say about all of that and somatics were just the tools that I had that helped me learn how to listen to my body learn How to embody? express my emotions embody the fullness of who I was access my sexuality my sensuality in a way that felt safe. Because if you are a purity culture Survivor. We’ve been taught that all of these things are so threatening and so wrong and are gonna lead us astray and we’re gonna burn in hell and it’s gonna destroy our marriages and our families and all these things and realizing that that actually wasn’t true and that I what I did need to was to get out of the.
10:15.91
claremcivor
Yeah.
10:16.41
Shari
Yeah.
10:25.20
claremcivor
Um, yes, yeah.
10:32.34
Tara Teng
Harmful unsafe relationships that why I was in my marriage and my church and I needed to start to come back to myself.
10:37.64
Shari
Ah.
10:40.23
claremcivor
And that I mean that’s a journey that’s ah, that’s a huge journey as as a fellow um, ah you know I was going to say divorceee. But I’m so disorganized I’ve been separated from my husband for three and a half years neither of us have filed for divorce yet. Um, but.
10:41.94
Tara Teng
It is a journey.
10:56.21
Tara Teng
Um, and I yeah.
10:56.95
claremcivor
Ah, technically I still do have a husband who lives two hundred metres from me. Um, but that’s ah, that’s a thing that the upheaval of your entire life. Um, the attitudes that church has about marriages about.
11:07.73
Tara Teng
Yes, completely.
11:07.76
Shari
Um, and.
11:14.63
claremcivor
Um, about your value as a woman if you’re unmarried if you’re post-married if you’re walking away from yeah so so let’s talk and I’m going to throw to you in a second rebecca to ask about.
11:16.27
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, yeah, that’s real.
11:28.40
claremcivor
Ah, about shame and and and what body shame or or shame about being a woman how that showed up in the service I’ll throw to you to ask about that in a second. Um, but but let’s just talk about your journey a little bit there. Um obviously somatics is. It’s a broad term but how will you define it for feet people who are going ooh. What’s that what’s that tara.
11:53.48
Tara Teng
Yeah, so somatics it’s body-based work. It comes from the Greek Word Soma which means of the body and somatics is or they’re really just the tools the skills the ways of being in connection to our body letting our body express.
12:01.51
claremcivor
Um, and.
12:11.00
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
12:12.96
Tara Teng
Right? It’s just it’s just this word this Umbrella term that we use for things that are body based right? So it’s I’m a body based practitioner and I use somatics and the skills of of things like nervous system regulation to give it a little bit more clarity and a little bit more specifics of what we’re talking about learning nervous system regulation.
12:17.53
claremcivor
Right.
12:30.71
claremcivor
Yeah, the Ic Yeah, the ic.
12:32.37
Tara Teng
Working through those like ooh those like triggers that pop up in our body right? like and here if you’re a survivor of like religious trauma or purity culture. Maybe like you have a visceral response in your body when you’re like in the grocery store walking down the aisle and like maybe like Bethel like pops up on the on the like.
12:35.10
Shari
Now.
12:49.35
Shari
If I.
12:51.84
Tara Teng
Over the Pa system right? you hear like this song like ocean starts running running like I need to get out of here is my body all of a sudden and is having like a fight or flight freeze fawn response to what is going on right? like this would be this would be a perfect example of where we can bring somatics in to start to work with and go okay like.
12:58.33
Cait
Um.
13:02.52
Shari
Her.
13:03.73
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
13:10.60
Tara Teng
Can we first off can we use the somatic skill of noticing what’s happening in your body right now. Can we name? what’s happening in your body Can we can We let your body now speak the truth about what is happening in your experience in your inner world at this present moment and then simply start to process that and having these skills now to like actually work through what is.
13:14.64
claremcivor
Um.
13:29.74
Tara Teng
There right? because we can hear things and see maybe we’ve been said to people things that are like oh just get over it or just move on right and you’re like great now I got to figure out how to do that right? Like thank you for throwing this thing at me with when I have no tools or skills to actually now get over something or move on right.
13:36.11
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yeah.
13:36.46
Shari
Um, and how yeah.
13:48.66
claremcivor
It’s it’s it. Yeah, my my experience of ah of purity culture and for those who haven’t heard of purity culture who might be listening to this. Ah.
13:49.32
Tara Teng
So somatic selfs us with that.
13:55.91
Tara Teng
You had.
14:02.78
claremcivor
How did you not hear of purity culture and I’m jealous of you but it’s this idea that you need to save sex for marriage. You need to save sensuality for marriage. It’s that it kind of dovetails with this idea of courtship which can be quite patriarchal. Um, it.
14:06.79
Shari
Um.
14:07.32
Cait
Um.
14:19.67
claremcivor
It’s in that you might need permission to to enter a relationship you might need chaperoning supervision. It’s really anti-sex but there’s sort of this promise that on your wedding night. You will morph into a sex God So sex goddess and everything will be fine, but what we’re finding is it’s not and we’re going to get into why.
14:24.80
Tara Teng
The honor.
14:30.90
Tara Teng
Totally.
14:38.19
claremcivor
That happens but to me, there’s a big. There was a great divorce in purity culture and that great divorce was between the body and everything else and but what I am learning is that we’re one being and you know how can you when you’re.
14:51.65
Tara Teng
A.
14:56.44
claremcivor
Condition that sex is bad. How can you then become aroused when you have shame attached to feelings of arousal. So what I’m what I’m curious is in in your work and I might throw to you first Rebecca but in both of your areas of work. How is shame. And body shame showed up for women and how does that link with the the messages that we receive in evangelicalism and evangelical adjacent spaces around sexuality womanhood and body.
15:30.60
Rebecca
Honestly, that’s pretty much the entire premise of she deserved better. Our latest books I’m going to like choose 1 small part of that and I’ll let I’ll let tara talk to the others. Um, but I we actually did ask a specific question. Our latest survey about whether or not they felt embarrassed by their periods growing up.
15:35.31
claremcivor
Ah there. Great.
15:47.37
Rebecca
Women that we that we surveyed whether or not their periods were embarrassing and we had options like well they are mortifying at first but I got used to it like yes I was always embarrass I still embarrassed like there’s all those and no I always thought it was pretty normal and I accepted it even if I found it uncomfortable um all sorts of options we had and we actually found that when women.
15:47.47
claremcivor
Um, is it.
15:48.43
Tara Teng
Um, madam.
15:54.68
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
16:06.81
Rebecca
Felt shame about their periods in high school beyond. What was kind of the reasonable expectation like we’re not expecting every single eleven year old to be dancing around thrilled that they got their first period where that’s that’s not realistic, but you know what if we had this.
16:15.97
claremcivor
Yeah, yeah.
16:24.22
Rebecca
Experience of shame around something that is literally just naturally a part of our experiences growing up because of how we were born. We cannot do anything to change it. There were a lot of negative effects. There were self-esteem effects that.
16:29.12
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yeah.
16:31.80
Tara Teng
Um, a.
16:33.85
Shari
With.
16:39.28
Tara Teng
Here.
16:42.32
Rebecca
Persisted through adulthood. Um, so there also were way less likely to have had adequate sex education. Um, and we know from our surveys as well as from I mean this is not going to be a huge newsflash to anyone here I don’t think but.
16:44.94
claremcivor
Ah.
16:48.85
claremcivor
Right.
16:50.40
Tara Teng
Are e.
17:00.79
Rebecca
Less sexual education is actually related to higher rates of ending up in abusive relationships to experience sexual coercion to ah you know, just feel like you don’t have autonomy because you don’t know what your choices are.
17:03.40
claremcivor
Of.
17:03.89
Shari
I.
17:06.45
Tara Teng
Yeah.
17:10.98
claremcivor
Yeah.
17:13.77
Shari
Yep.
17:15.33
Tara Teng
Totally.
17:16.33
Rebecca
You don’t know what’s supposed to be happening. You don’t have the language to describe when something isn’t okay. We also found that there were certain teachings in core curriculums that were given to young girls as young as like we’re talking preteen age where girls are warned not to talk about their periods.
17:19.87
claremcivor
No.
17:35.97
Rebecca
Around boys for fear that they may become too sexually familiar with each other. Oh yeah, no, we’re going to let that just simmer for a second. Just the idea that like I mean a tampon sexy like this is what happens we’re not allowed to talk about sex tampons become aphrodisiacs. Okay.
17:39.30
claremcivor
What the cape. What.
17:40.77
Shari
Yeah.
17:44.28
Cait
Are.
17:50.42
claremcivor
Um.
17:52.14
Cait
Um.
17:55.82
claremcivor
Ah, never how I felt about a tampon by the way. Ah, oh stop. Never all gross. But.
17:55.88
Rebecca
So we’re no I don’t think it’s it’s really not having mar like Charles and Camilla flashbacks. Um, no, but but we have this this whole. Ah, what happens is exactly like what you’re saying Claire is we were so afraid that kids would have.
17:57.90
Shari
Yeah.
17:57.36
Cait
Is.
18:15.86
Rebecca
Sex that what we did was and I’m talking we as in the larger evangelical culture here. What the larger evangelical culture did was it looked at the situation. It was like okay kids are horny kids are having sex. How can we make that stop? Well the boys aren’t going to stop boys or boys boys are also in charge.
18:22.83
claremcivor
Ah.
18:28.55
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
18:30.74
Shari
That it.
18:32.15
Tara Teng
Yeah, so.
18:35.25
Rebecca
Which is very convenient that they decided that boys weren’t the ones who were able to stop when the boys were in charge and so they said we’re going to have to make sure the girls stop. So what did they do? they made periods sexual you’re now a woman you can now have babies. This is a sexual thing. They told us. As young girls that you know the boys around you are visual in a way that you can never understand and your your blossoming body is um, is intoxicating to the grown men in the congregation. Even we were told things like. God made men to be the sexual aggressors I heard that all the time in brio magazine growing up which was put out by focus on the family. It was one of the largest Christian magazines to teen girls who are told boys that are designed by god to be sexual aggressors and so your job is to make sure you don’t turn them on.
19:11.24
Tara Teng
Oh brio.
19:24.97
Rebecca
But also you’re supposed to be feminine and you’re also supposed to be pretty because Christians are like people who people want to be like so you have to be pretty be can’t be too pretty and like you don’t want to dress frumpy because that looks like you don’t respect yourself but you can’t be revealing either and also you need to be like happy that you’re a woman but also periods are bad.
19:43.83
claremcivor
Um, yes, yes and and don’t don’t let people know that you have period pain because then you’re not in faith or there’s you know that’s a whole thing. There’s so many layers.
19:44.96
Rebecca
And you can’t talk about them and.
19:51.76
Rebecca
There are so many layers to this and I think what ended up happening was instead of getting any actual education about sex about you know the risks associated with sex what we got were fear tactics. We didn’t get information.
19:53.24
Shari
I’m gonna please.
20:03.52
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yes, yes.
20:04.33
Tara Teng
Yeah.
20:08.60
Rebecca
We got if you have sex you will get pregnant and you will die via mean girls right? Like that’s that’s the message that we got and so what happened was you had all these girls who talked about sex all the time and knew absolutely nothing. We talked about sex constantly but you couldn’t like the number I think we had.
20:20.42
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yes.
20:28.79
Rebecca
Approximately yeah I think the number was approximately only 1 in 4 women on our survey reported that they were able to adequately define date rape by the time they graduated high school.
20:38.68
claremcivor
Who that is that is that’s a lot and.
20:39.32
Tara Teng
Wow.
20:45.64
Rebecca
Yeah, for the more specific stats I Unfortunately my copy of my own book is at my mother’s house because she lives just around the road from me so I was gonna pull it up but you know, um.
20:51.61
Shari
The.
20:53.19
claremcivor
Ah, no, no, it’s it’s interesting to me because as a single woman navigating the world of dating apps and this must have been interesting for you as well terra in your own journey out of church and into kind of into this.
21:02.93
Tara Teng
Then.
21:10.15
claremcivor
More affirming and more safe space where you safe in your own body learning about my rights as a woman while trying to navigate dating was really really difficult I was I found that I would mirror my date and I would just become whatever he wanted.
21:15.73
Tara Teng
And.
21:27.90
Tara Teng
Smell and you.
21:29.53
claremcivor
Because that’s what Evangelicalism taught me to do is just become whatever he wants and so I would mirror and so so consequently I’m a fantastic date like every time I go on a date. The guy thinks that he’s just you know, well not every time I’ve had some absolute shockers. But um.
21:33.24
Shari
Familiar.
21:48.16
claremcivor
You know they’re like oh god you’re amazing. Let’s see each other again I’m like no I didn’t like you and got no idea and then learning about you know, like consent. What the heck is that and there’s this whole storm in a teacup in Australia at the moment over a sex education book that has resulted in.
21:53.81
Tara Teng
Um.
22:06.30
claremcivor
Death threats to the author and and harassment of ah of retail staff at the stores where they sell this book and and it’s simply body awareness and it’s simply awareness of of you know it’s like it’s something that parents can use to talk with their children about So there’s this.
22:06.50
Tara Teng
Wow.
22:24.45
claremcivor
<unk>s this kind of Venn diagram of denying people information about their bodies and branding that as righteousness but then we have to deal with learning about consent and learning about arousal and also deconditioning the element of our body that’s been like that’s learnt that sex is bad. How is this for you. Walking away from a marriage at the same time you’re deconstructing faith and kind of finding your way into this this world.
22:52.72
Tara Teng
Yeah I mean um I I thankfully had always had a really good relationship with my sexuality but that was the problem for everyone else around me. Is I was continuously the one that was being pulled aside at you screw pulled aside at like church bible camp being told by whoever was my like person in Authority over me that like I couldn’t wear what I was wearing I was being too like distracting for the boys. It was all of these things.
23:07.15
claremcivor
Um, ah.
23:20.28
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
23:26.46
Tara Teng
Right? That like I was not doing purity culture right? and and that right and and I still I mean I still get I Still get people who give me that kind of feedback online that are still living in that space.
23:30.98
claremcivor
Tara Timra terra
23:31.78
Shari
Good job.
23:39.70
claremcivor
Yeah.
23:41.63
Tara Teng
Don’t like the way that I show up really expressive and owning my sexuality really comfortable in my sexuality really like understanding my own anatomy my own menstrual cycle my own hormone. What my hormones need to feel fed and nourished and.
23:57.34
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
23:59.76
Tara Teng
All of these things like I have always had this really beautiful relationship with that that did not fit in alignment in the religious and conservative spaces that I came from and I was always seen as the one who was causing all of the problems and I had no problem pushing back on that.
24:04.96
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yes.
24:15.92
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
24:17.44
Tara Teng
I didn’t fit into that and my body was in this constant Tug of war of trying to be who they wanted me to be and then be who I was and this tension within myself that I couldn’t show up in this as the same thing all the time and so for me, that’s just my body speaking to me my body just telling me like.
24:26.90
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
24:36.30
claremcivor
Um, and.
24:37.30
Tara Teng
All of the things that weren’t right in that place and how I tried so hard to be who they wanted me to be and still didn’t measure up still couldn’t fit in.
24:38.86
claremcivor
Yeah.
24:48.95
claremcivor
That’s I mean I so relate and and I want to kind of just throw back to what you were talking back in the beginning Rebecca it was about that love and respect book women don’t want sex. We want emotions we want emotional release.
24:53.84
Tara Teng
And hanging.
25:01.54
Tara Teng
Right? But I I want sex.
25:05.51
claremcivor
And yeah, yeah, hard relate. Okay.
25:05.94
Rebecca
Well and I’ll say.
25:06.10
Cait
But I was I just want to jump in I going to jump in and say I went to a small group based on that book and I was like one of the only people freaking out about how terrible it was and that was it was awful. Just not good.
25:07.83
Shari
Um.
25:08.54
Tara Teng
God Want great relax.
25:17.45
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, yeah.
25:20.33
claremcivor
Ah, but not good at all I I’ll give you my wedding night story which what you know I don’t don’t freak out guys I’m not going to give you the whole nine yards but like I was I was 29 when I got married and and my husband was obviously gay conversion therapy survivor and.
25:21.31
Shari
Here and.
25:30.62
Cait
Um.
25:39.66
claremcivor
And he’d had a moment of oh dear really am gay kind of thing on our wedding day which was you know I didn’t know about for years later but he was he was promised this coy Christian bride. Um, and what he got was a horny 29 year old virgin who’d spent a lot of money on lingerie.
25:40.41
Tara Teng
Um, not only.
25:49.50
Tara Teng
I.
25:57.65
claremcivor
And it threw him for a loop because he was kind of expecting someone who was going to have to coax and I was like woo. Let’s go at it didn’t like it was very. It was a very different experience but I was kind of like finally I don’t have to feel shame about this and can I Also just say.
25:58.96
Tara Teng
And.
25:59.86
Cait
Ah.
26:04.45
Shari
Um, just ah.
26:06.87
Tara Teng
Um, Wow. Yes.
26:12.77
claremcivor
Because we’re not supposed to tempt men because it’s always blame the women and by the way go see the Barbie movie. It’s fantastic. Um, but but how do you dance with abandon for the lord without letting the boys know that you got titties or an ass.
26:17.36
Rebecca
So good.
26:26.34
Tara Teng
Um, a.
26:27.88
claremcivor
Um, you know in in Christian Circles. You kind of ended up. We used to do this thing like you start with the kind of holding the washing basket praise hands and you kind of have to just kind of close them across your boobies so that they don’t move while you jump and you do this walrus clap and um, it’s very straight up and down and. But yet women with personalities and brains terror I think you and I would probably have some similar experiences being the unsubmitted woman being the woman who wants to be who she is and and so how did how does shame.
26:56.10
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
27:07.67
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
27:07.87
claremcivor
Show up somatically and I’m I kind of asking you a question I almost know the answer to because while you were talking about periods Rebecca I was feeling queasy. Um, so that’s you know obviously I still have period shame about about that aspect of being a woman um tell tell me tara.
27:15.17
Tara Teng
Nan new.
27:22.96
Tara Teng
Yeah.
27:24.11
claremcivor
How does shame show up in purity culture survivors and and how does it show up in somatics.
27:30.10
Tara Teng
Yeah, well I think you just named it right? like it shows up like we feel physically sick in our bodies when we’re experiencing shame. We want to run we want to hide we want to shut it down. It is very hard for us.
27:41.75
claremcivor
Um, ah.
27:47.78
Tara Teng
To experience shame in our bodies this visceral experience of shame in our bodies and to stay with it to track that experience and it’s so interesting because if we you want to run you want to hide you want to shut it down I can’t look at myself in the mirror when shame is present. It is so.
27:52.63
claremcivor
Um, you’re right? We run boom.
28:06.83
Tara Teng
Much yet. What’s interesting is if we sit and we actually can expand our window of tolerance and feel safe enough resource enough this is where it’s really helpful sometimes to work with somebody. But when we have that support to actually listen to what shame has to tell us we’ll often find that.
28:08.10
claremcivor
Ah.
28:08.72
Shari
Ah.
28:26.14
Tara Teng
Shame is such a liar and on the other side of that shame is full of things that we actually logically realistically don’t have to fear but we can’t often sit with it long enough because we want run so quickly so we want to get away. We have this constant like.
28:35.85
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
28:43.75
Tara Teng
Like I can’t handle it I need to get out of here response to shame right? and we miss that then so one of the things that I do with my clients is we play this little game where we say can we name all the elephants in the room. Can we just name all of the things that we’re afraid of and it’s like this.
28:44.90
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yeah.
28:52.34
Shari
Ah.
28:56.61
claremcivor
Baha.
29:01.60
Tara Teng
Experience when you’re with a child or when you were a child and you’re so afraid of this thing that sits in the corner of your room and you turn on the light and it’s just this pile of old dirty socks that hasn’t made its way into the laundry yet. But when you can’t see it for what it is. It is.
29:16.34
claremcivor
Ah, yeah.
29:18.75
claremcivor
Yeah.
29:18.76
Shari
A.
29:19.41
Tara Teng
Terrifying and that’s what this experience of shame feels like in our bodies and if we can just turn on the light to really look it in the eyes and see what it actually is that we’re so desperately afraid of it’s amazing. How disarming that is to the shame in and Of. South But most of us don’t get to the point of actually being able to have the courage to look at it and sit with it long enough because it’s so uncomfortable. It feels devastating because shame is telling us that we are wrong that we are bad and that threatens. Everything within who we are.
29:57.29
claremcivor
It’s really interesting my therapist my therapist ah gave me this. Ah this strategy called signs of safety signs of danger where you actually like when you’re feeling anxiety which might show up as kind of.
30:01.25
Tara Teng
Um.
30:08.47
Tara Teng
And laugh.
30:09.58
claremcivor
Erased heart rate sweating shortness of breath. It might show up as you know inability to concentrate just just feeling like you’re out of control um to actually name the signs of safety and to name the things that you’re perceiving as signs of danger. Because that’s what your brain and needs like if we’re ignoring this elephant in the room. Um, your brain is still perceiving the threat and so really being able to sink into that so naming things saying the quiet part out loud. So freaking important. Um, and what I find interesting about this is Rebecca.
30:29.22
Tara Teng
I had.
30:36.19
Shari
And yeah.
30:38.38
Tara Teng
Yeah.
30:44.14
claremcivor
You have been part of naming the thing you have been saying the quiet part out loud while the reactions has been has been 1 aspect but I wanted to lean into so we’ve got this period shame that kind of.
30:49.91
Tara Teng
A.
30:59.35
Tara Teng
And.
31:00.53
claremcivor
Um, tells women that they’re only sort of acceptable partially because there’s also this this element that happens to you. You know one week in 4 and and and don’t tell anyone about it and don’t show up as being cranky or in pain or anything like that. So we’ve got period shame. But how does this.
31:04.43
Tara Teng
New.
31:12.88
Tara Teng
Yeah.
31:17.96
claremcivor
How does this translate to shame in marriage shame with sexuality. Um, and how does it show up about in in terms of lack of self-advocacy and limited information. So I know that So absolutely just just tell me whatever you’ve got on your mind Really I don’t know what the question is ah.
31:21.32
Tara Teng
Man there and yeah.
31:28.20
Rebecca
Ah.
31:34.90
Rebecca
No this. Um, this is all so connected. That’s why it’s hard to um to only ask what one thinks it’s it’s it’s it’s I find this stuff So interesting I was a psychology grad and like all we did was sit around in circles and try to figure out why things were the way they were and so this is totally totally.
31:34.43
Cait
Are.
31:35.74
Tara Teng
E.
31:45.42
Tara Teng
And.
31:46.57
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
31:49.13
Rebecca
Been so much fun for me as a project but what what we’ve pretty much hypothesized because we did our surveys. We also did you know a literature view of the already existing literature and we also did focus groups talking about women’s experiences in different areas of this and one of the the through lines that we found.
31:57.80
Tara Teng
A.
31:59.29
claremcivor
Um.
31:59.45
Shari
Yeah.
32:07.10
Rebecca
Is if you’re a woman who grows up like profoundly ashamed of natural bodily functions. Profoundly ashamed of just the parts of yourself that are quite like Hallmark Femininity kind of situation. You also again probably didn’t have great sex ed.
32:14.55
claremcivor
Ah.
32:15.27
Tara Teng
Um.
32:23.70
claremcivor
Is a.
32:24.45
Tara Teng
Are a.
32:26.23
Rebecca
Um, you are probably in circles that were very afraid of female sexuality and female sexual response and you are probably being told things like you have to be the brakes because he’s the gas and so what we hear from many women.
32:36.90
claremcivor
Er.
32:36.58
Tara Teng
Right.
32:36.61
Shari
And comp.
32:40.38
Rebecca
There’s actually 1 of the one of the most popular authors in evangelicalism ah her book to teenagers I find horrifying because we spoke to women who were specifically didn’t realize that their sexual assault was rape because of like this book. They actually say that. Ah. Boys 8080 something percent of boys feel little ability and little responsibility to stop in a makeout situation. They they don’t feel like they should or could stop the sexual progression and then they highlight this young teenage boy saying so girls if you don’t want to start. If you want to stop. It’s better to not even start so it’s this idea that guys and it’s it’s ah it’s literally a rate myth. It’s like on all the websites or universities like rate myths one of them is that you know if you don’t want to have sex don’t even kiss a guy because he can’t stop. Want to gets past certain point. So when you’re a girl who’s growing up in this environment where you’re told your body even.
33:17.66
claremcivor
So I’ve heard that one? yep.
33:18.17
Tara Teng
And.
33:18.88
Shari
No.
33:31.51
Tara Teng
Yeah, of.
33:32.13
claremcivor
Um.
33:36.76
Rebecca
By the way even bleeding out of your vagina and having used tampons and pads. That’s so sexy that you could get the grown men around you turned on by talking about that. So don’t do that. Also your perry pubescent body is a temptation to the fifty sixty 70 year old men.
33:44.37
Tara Teng
A.
33:48.18
claremcivor
That’s so weird. So weird.
33:52.29
Tara Teng
Man man.
33:56.22
Rebecca
On the elders board. So make sure you’re wearing like long pants when you’re on worship and not a skirt in case they try to look up it. Also oh that was literally told to me and my sister at our church growing up? Yep yep, exactly and it’s like yeah well what they say is the man in the front 2 rows but who sits in the front 2 rows anyway.
33:57.93
Tara Teng
Yeah.
34:02.42
claremcivor
Um, oh my god.
34:04.42
Tara Teng
I was taught that I was told that explicitly as well too. Yeah.
34:08.63
Shari
Yep.
34:13.79
claremcivor
The.
34:16.27
Rebecca
And then and then you’re told as ah as an older teenager who’s dating that you need to make sure to stop because he’s not gonna be able to and what women end up doing and what we’ve heard over and over again. Is they describe it as spectatoring their own sexual experiences. So.
34:19.68
Shari
Um.
34:24.60
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
34:31.00
claremcivor
Oh.
34:32.84
Tara Teng
A.
34:35.87
Rebecca
A lot of women. They grow up and they’re really great evangelicals. They do a great job. They don’t go an inch too far because at any moment they kind of dissociate because they have to be the ones to stop because he won’t so they actually can’t get into it in the same way.
34:40.36
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
34:46.60
Tara Teng
Your hand man he oh.
34:46.57
Shari
And.
34:48.14
claremcivor
Um.
34:50.69
claremcivor
O.
34:54.22
Rebecca
This is a that. We’ve heard this from so many women you get you get into a makeup situation your boyfriend and it’s fine and and you’re thinking. Okay, this is fun. Is it okay that his hands there is it okay that it’s there should we stop yet. Should we stop yet. Should we stop yet. Should we stop yet and you aren’t actually.
34:55.24
Shari
Um.
35:04.00
claremcivor
On yeah.
35:05.65
Tara Teng
And her and.
35:11.41
Rebecca
Physically. Emotionally everything is not together. You’re forcing a cognitive dissonance between your experience and your your psyche and so then when you get married and you’re like great I can have sex Now you’ve now trained your brain to separate as soon as there’s arousal.
35:13.61
Shari
Tap.
35:13.71
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
35:21.40
Tara Teng
Yep.
35:26.58
claremcivor
Yeah, that that’s that’s the conditioning I was talking about. Yeah.
35:28.42
Shari
And now.
35:29.33
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, yeah.
35:30.37
Rebecca
Yeah, and for some women that doesn’t happen but for a lot of women. It really does is they realize I can have sex now and then they realize they’ve never actually felt arousal Even if they’ve been aroused they haven’t actually felt it and so they don’t They can’t follow their own cues and so Orgasm’s really hard because how can you.
35:35.10
Tara Teng
Math.
35:39.44
claremcivor
Yeah, yes.
35:42.47
Tara Teng
A.
35:50.80
Rebecca
Orgasm if you can’t follow your body’s cues. That’s literally what every that’s That’s how this works is you have to follow through the arousal of the arousal cycles to get to orgasm and it’s It’s really frustrating because they think I did everything right? and I was told that if you don’t have sex that God will bless you with a perfect sex life and then they get married and.
35:58.31
Tara Teng
Yeah.
36:04.83
claremcivor
Oh yeah.
36:09.31
Rebecca
For example, we actually found that a lot of women who waited until their wedding night to have sex. Um, they were actually twenty approximately 20% more likely to struggle with bagenismus than women who had only had sex with their partner but they had sex before they were married and why is that.
36:24.24
claremcivor
Wow, let’s.
36:25.21
Tara Teng
And.
36:25.22
Shari
Her.
36:28.95
Rebecca
It’s likely because if you have sex because if you’re evangelicals who are trying not to have sex before you’re married who are having sex before they’re married typically people who are so hot and heavy. They can’t stop versus if you get if you have sex with first son on your wedding night. A lot of times it’s because you’re under a deadline right? You’re like well now we’re married.
36:37.67
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yeah, wow.
36:39.90
Shari
And yeah.
36:42.30
Tara Teng
You.
36:45.94
Rebecca
And so if you’re not if you’re one of those women who just has a hard time flipping the switch to like get okay I’m ready to go Now you’ve just had the longest day of your life. You know the one of the most stressful weeks leading up to your wedding and a lot of these women have systematically trained their bodies to disassociate as soon as they feel arousal.
36:53.64
Tara Teng
Yeah.
37:03.39
Tara Teng
A and.
37:03.49
claremcivor
Okay, yeah.
37:05.48
Rebecca
And so this is why we need better sex education because and also better educational consent for both parties because if if a couple decides that they’re going to wait until marriage that needs to be on both of them So that one person’s sexuality and sexual experience is not sacrificed for the sake of ease and less mental load on the other.
37:06.99
Shari
From the.
37:14.76
claremcivor
Are.
37:15.35
Shari
Yeah.
37:19.34
Tara Teng
Yeah, so good.
37:23.89
claremcivor
Yeah now I that there’s so much in what you just said because the good there is so much you write about the deadline and you write about the pressure on the sexual debut ah I want to.
37:29.70
Rebecca
Stories.
37:33.14
Tara Teng
Me.
37:38.19
claremcivor
I’m ah I’m going to ask Sherry and Kate for a reflection in a second. But first of all that piece about dissociation that has been on my mind the whole way through this um dissociation is something that a lot of us have used as a survival technique is if you just are not.
37:46.72
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
37:55.67
claremcivor
In your body If you’re just not present for this traumatic thing that’s happening. You don’t have to feel it to the same degree. Um, talk to me terra about about dissociation is this something that comes up a lot in your work with people has it come up in your own experience.
38:09.22
Tara Teng
Yeah.
38:13.51
claremcivor
And and how do we really move through that. What is it? How do we move through it. Why does it happen and what happens because of it.
38:14.58
Tara Teng
Yeah, yeah, it comes up all the time. So Rebecca deals with the data right? and she’s doing this massive beautiful survey to give us this really broad like big picture approach of what is happening. As a result of evangelicalism and purity culture and high control religion and I take all of those people that represent the data and I work 1 on 1 with them to heal the very things that she is talking about on paper.
38:45.67
claremcivor
Yeah.
38:49.32
Tara Teng
So yes, this is the number. 1 reason it’s not I don’t only work with survivors of purity culture and religious trauma. But the majority of the reason why people find me is because they are now in a partnership or they want to be in a partnership. But even if they have deconstructed purity culture in their mind and logically they’re like this is.
38:53.28
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
39:09.18
Tara Teng
Bullshit and I don’t believe it I can’t get it out of my body. My body is still conditioned to view sex Sexuality sexual orientation sexual expression any sort of eroticism or sensuality as a threat and my body goes whoa.
39:12.44
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
39:26.10
Tara Teng
And it shuts off and I disconnect and I leave my body if I don’t feel like I can stay present because it’s not safe enough I leave my body because my nervous system is in a state of flight. So I disassociate if I can’t physically remove myself I’m going to leave my body or I go into to freeze.
39:30.38
Rebecca
Aha.
39:30.48
claremcivor
Um, and.
39:36.43
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
39:45.27
Tara Teng
And I literally you see people shut down. They just shut down completely Again, you’re It’s like the deer in the headlights experience or we fawn where we start to talk our way out of it or we people please because we don’t feel like we have the autonomy to say no to assert our boundaries or to assert our.
39:45.57
claremcivor
Ah.
39:51.13
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
40:03.10
Tara Teng
Sent or withdraw our consent right because of the environment that we were in has conditioned us in all of these different ways. So people come to me because they’re noticing these patterns are popping up. They want to be able to be sexual either with themselves or with their partner or to start to find a partner or maybe they’re with a partner that is.
40:03.35
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
40:11.90
claremcivor
Are.
40:21.17
Tara Teng
Patient and loving and compassionate and accepts all of who they are and who has comprehensive sex education and all the things should align because they love this person. They feel safe enough but their nervous system is still conditioned. To see sex as a threat and they go into a full-fledged Panic Attack Fight flight freeze fawn. Whatever that looks like for them when they want to finally be sexual with themselves or another person and so we start to do this work with the nervous system to come back into safety to notice the.
40:39.90
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
40:46.44
Shari
Um.
40:52.42
Tara Teng
Triggers The Traumas the lies the stories all of these things from purity culture that still are ingrained in their bodies and start to reestablish safety again. So that they can now take up their space Express themselves. Be able to engage and embody in their sexuality in ways that never felt accessible to them before.
41:13.78
claremcivor
And that is that is so powerful I think obviously dissociation. It gets a bit of a bad rap because we think of dissociation we think of dissociative identity disorder we think of the crowded room the United States of Tarra um, no connection there. Um, and.
41:21.90
Tara Teng
A.
41:30.87
claremcivor
Think of all these other things but dissociation is um, is that sense of if I can’t leave I’m going to zone out. Ah and I’m going to just not not not attend this moment in my life so that I don’t have to feel it I don’t have to and it’s it’s and it’s really.
41:35.50
Cait
Are.
41:36.97
Tara Teng
Yeah, I’m gonna leave my body.
41:45.72
Shari
Now.
41:50.30
claremcivor
It’s a fascinating thing. It’s a survival technique for sure. But we also have to grapple with the after effects of that what you were talking about their links directly with what Rebecca was talking about with arousal because if there’s shame if there’s dissociation. You’re going to feel shame about arousal or you’re not going to feel anything at all and um, it.
41:51.14
Tara Teng
And.
42:02.24
Tara Teng
Yeah, yeah.
42:09.76
claremcivor
It’s really interesting Ben Shapiro isn’t here darling isn’t he a darling for telling all of us that he’s never gotten his wife wet. Um and and just ah.
42:11.60
Tara Teng
Of.
42:16.51
Shari
Yeah, this I don’t even know what to say to that.
42:19.77
Tara Teng
But you know what this is such a through line and we can We just acknowledge that like it’s such a gift because now we’re naming the thing though that like this is such a through line and the and the women that I have worked with were like I I can’t have orgasms or they’re very very rare.
42:28.81
claremcivor
Yes.
42:38.34
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
42:39.21
Tara Teng
Um, see so much but but vaginismus Vulvedinia things like ibs is very common things like ezema are very common in our bodies. Um and and seeing because we’re we’re on high alert all the time right? Everything we have to be hyper vigilant against arousal we have to.
42:41.17
Rebecca
The heart.
42:50.61
claremcivor
Gift to.
42:58.58
Tara Teng
Be hyper vigilant against any hint of sexual immorality. Which yeah mean we can even look at that like that’s totally taken out of context when then we’re talking about like what actually is sexual immorality. They said that as patient they said that it’s it’s arousal. They said that it’s it’s having sex outside of marriage that is actually not.
43:08.70
claremcivor
Right.
43:16.84
Tara Teng
What sexual immorality is when we really peel back from like the biblical interpretation. But that’s a whole other story but you know that but that lives in our bodies and it’s very hard to just get over that or to shake that when you’ve been conditioned in you’ve conditioned your nervous system for what 102030 years
43:20.60
claremcivor
Okay, we’re going to come back to that? yeah.
43:23.80
Shari
Um, look yeah.
43:33.61
claremcivor
Yeah, 29 yeah
43:36.14
Tara Teng
Respond one way right? and this is a through line where so many women who have come out of conservative religion who have come out of high control religion Evangelicalism purity culture like we have shame about our periods. We don’t know we we can’t look at our volva.
43:38.39
Shari
Yeah.
43:54.90
Tara Teng
We can’t tell you the anatomy of our body. We can’t God forbid. You can touch your body can you that you could touch your own gpo that you could that you could squirt that you could come that you can have rolling orgasms one after another that we can even talk about this much less believed that it’s possible or actually.
44:07.61
claremcivor
Yeah.
44:13.60
Tara Teng
Experience it for ourselves.
44:15.44
claremcivor
So and this is also true. So I want to throw to to Kate and to sherry about this stay home daughters Christian patriarchy um, Kate why don’t you what does this bring up.
44:15.66
Shari
Yeah, ah.
44:24.60
Tara Teng
Who.
44:30.46
claremcivor
Like what what is this kind of topic. How does it sit with you.
44:36.12
Cait
Um I just I feel like I need to do some deep breaths I feel like both of you Rebecca and Tarra are speaking to my 11 year old self my 12 year old self. Um I didn’t receive any so sex education at all. Um.
44:39.14
Tara Teng
A.
44:48.00
claremcivor
Um, so.
44:49.50
Shari
Are.
44:54.36
Cait
I didn’t understand my own body I didn’t know I had certain body parts because I was so dissociated from myself. Um, and to the point where in my family.
45:01.72
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
45:03.85
claremcivor
Um, good.
45:10.32
Cait
Beyond sexual purity. We had to maintain emotional purity so I wasn’t allowed to have like emotions about my sexuality or other people and so I shut all of that down. You know I was 11 and and a woman at church told me I was flirting with somebody I was just.
45:12.23
claremcivor
Um, yes, but.
45:12.80
Tara Teng
Him? Yeah, that’s a real.
45:13.59
Shari
And yeah.
45:29.12
Cait
Playing because I was a child um I was five 1 Ah, one of my earliest memories is being shamed for what I was wearing when I was five years old um, just like this has been my whole life and then when I left I was 25 I had to you know i.
45:30.42
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yes, that happened to me? yep.
45:34.67
Shari
Ah, enough cap.
45:42.23
claremcivor
And.
45:42.93
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
45:48.93
Cait
Looked up some stuff in the dictionary but the expectation was that my husband was going to teach me what sex was and as you know like that’s not a good foundation for understanding of consent or pleasure Neither of those words were part of my vocabulary.
45:50.50
Tara Teng
And and yes.
45:55.70
Shari
And then.
45:56.77
claremcivor
Um I.
46:06.55
Cait
Like I thankfully married a loving man. Um, but it it wasn’t right? Yeah and but I did you know I had those panic attacks this first couple years because I didn’t understand what was happening I didn’t understand my own body or what I wanted.
46:10.32
claremcivor
Not all of us get that? Yeah yeah.
46:14.52
Shari
Um, yeah.
46:24.72
Cait
And ah to notefall of his like it was just in my like you said my nervous system. Um, just this trauma that I I didn’t understand until much later. So I feel like this is really healing for me just to listen and and learn about embodiment. So.
46:25.25
claremcivor
No.
46:29.11
Tara Teng
A.
46:43.81
Cait
And something I’m still working on.
46:44.19
claremcivor
And I think the point of survivors discuss is because we want to have the expert opinion but we also want to to meet it with the lived experience of here’s where we are years after the fact, what about you sherry.
46:52.95
Tara Teng
Yeah.
46:54.30
Shari
um yeah um I think I I feel very similarly to Kate here like um I’ll be honest, you know Rebecca when I read Shea serves better like i. I cried at the end of that because I felt like it was it was talking to younger me. Um, sorry yeah.
47:14.34
claremcivor
Don’t cry now because I’ve done my makeup you’re all at the end of your day. You’re all you know you’re all at the end of your day I’m at the beginning of mine I got to look cute I’m sitting here with Miss Canada good god back to back to you Sherri.
47:14.87
Cait
Are.
47:29.68
Shari
Um, Ah, yeah, so like it just felt like everything in that book was what younger me needed to hear. Um and there’s definitely grief there that she never got to hear it and so that’s that’s something that even now. 38 you know I’m still processing that because you know I did they’re Better. We all did um, but this discussion around boundaries and shame it. It actually brought up a couple of of specific memories for me like for me I was.
47:44.84
claremcivor
Believe.
47:52.38
Tara Teng
Now you’re in.
48:00.47
Shari
I wasn’t taught about boundaries except for my job as a woman is to say no when things are going too far sexually that was my only context for boundaries. There was a really.
48:08.71
Tara Teng
Fran. Yeah.
48:15.21
Shari
Awkward experience I had with ah my boss once when I worked in a Christian bookstore and she was trying to tell me about the boundaries book and I hadn’t heard of it and so she was trying to explain it to me and and she she started with a question like well you have a you have a sibling like does your sibling ever try to push your boundaries and I’m like oh my God no. Like it was it was it was just like so awkward. Um, thankfully I figured out where I had been steered wrong. But anyway, um, but then that led me to thinking about another memory where like I remember making out with an X and.
48:36.60
claremcivor
Oh god.
48:36.60
Tara Teng
Me while I um.
48:53.89
Shari
You know we were enjoying the moment and at some point we both just wanted to go a little bit further than we believed. We should and he was the one that stopped it and I just remember feeling so much shame because that was my job as the woman and I made him do my job. Um.
49:09.95
Rebecca
Um.
49:12.12
Tara Teng
Um.
49:12.61
claremcivor
Um.
49:13.87
Shari
And I just remember like losing sleep that night for being a horrible girlfriend a horrible Christian like there was just so it was a very traumatic experience for me I think um so yeah.
49:20.67
claremcivor
Yeah, and and that trauma it sticks it. It lives on and what I notice before hosting this podcast and still I still do host the unchurchable podcast. And over the years the messages I’ve gotten from women who years after the fact are still affected by sexual shame years after they’re married so purity culture I I do laugh. There’s this quote that that really makes sense to me is that purity culture has fucked a lot of more people than you.
49:53.35
Shari
I Like that.
49:55.44
claremcivor
Um, and and I did laugh at that. It’s true. Um, so a what does the I’m going to ask you a question about the data on on abuse toxic relationships and lack of information lack of.
49:57.78
Tara Teng
Accurate.
49:59.72
Cait
Um.
50:14.70
claremcivor
Yeah, so I’m going to ask you that question? um Rebecca and then I’d like to ask you Tara for for the follow up of of how that shows up in the physical and and emotional experience around embodiment. So so Rebecca ha evangelical women toxic relationships.
50:14.22
Tara Teng
Um, the.
50:23.57
Tara Teng
The ham.
50:33.44
claremcivor
And sexuality this is a juggernaut this feels like an absolute giant to me. Um, is it ah is it a Venn diagram that we have created because of the. The sexual disempowerment does that lead to toxic relationships or does it simply enable them.
50:53.88
Rebecca
Um, well,, there’s been a very large study that I do not have the the citation off the top of my head Unfortunately, but there’s a study that found that although rates of abuse are not very different in evangelical. Cultures then in like the secular world women stay for longer and I think that’s where this really comes down to him we we definitely found because we didn’t We didn’t contrast and compare with nonreligious samples. So That’s why I’m calling to a different study for that particular part. But.
51:10.24
claremcivor
Um, bright.
51:12.52
Shari
A.
51:12.87
Tara Teng
A.
51:23.15
claremcivor
Um.
51:26.54
Rebecca
When you look at what we found our dad. It makes total sense. The number of girls who are taught if a girl dresses in a way that incites lust a boy can’t help but sexually objectifier can’t help a lust after her like if um, you know.
51:27.10
claremcivor
This is.
51:35.81
Tara Teng
He.
51:37.20
claremcivor
Um, over.
51:42.50
Rebecca
Ah, yeah, like ah boys are going to try to push your sexual boundaries. That’s just how boys are these questions about you know boys are visually stimulated world like in the way that girls can never understand you’re you’re already grooming these girls for what abusive boyfriends are going to tell them. Um I was on a podcast.
51:53.62
Tara Teng
Um, you are.
51:57.66
Shari
Ah.
51:59.23
Rebecca
A while ago with a man who was pushing back against us who was saying things like yeah, but but there are like guys kind of are like that and so you tell your daughter like just be careful like boys are gonna try to push your boundaries So like just don’t put yourself in that position so that nothing bad happens and I said yeah, but let’s actually think this through. Because I think a lot of purity culture caused so much damage. But I do think that a lot of it came from very ah altruistic desires on the term on the side of parents. You know they don’t want their girls to get sexually assaulted like they’re not monsters from that like.
52:25.13
claremcivor
Yes, yes.
52:31.17
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, yeah.
52:32.53
Shari
Here.
52:32.62
claremcivor
No.
52:34.69
Rebecca
You know they don’t want their. They don’t want their 12 year olds to go to orgies. Okay like like that’s like okay and and we and I know that sounds silly but these are the kinds of straw men arguments that are used to support purity culture right? is um I mean how many of us grew up being told about.
52:40.97
claremcivor
Um.
52:46.69
claremcivor
Yeah.
52:47.55
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
52:51.70
Rebecca
Like oral sex parties in middle school and stuff and it’s like this don’t really happen like people are still carrying Poly pockets with them. Um, but I think that when we actually look at the data what ends up happening is we actually prime our girls to believe the lies that the abusive boyfriend tells them. So if we’re trying to warn girls.
52:54.43
Tara Teng
Me.
52:56.16
claremcivor
Um.
52:58.94
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
53:07.77
Tara Teng
Yeah, we do.
53:11.68
Rebecca
Saying all boys are like this then what happens when she meets a boy like that or she’s in love with her boyfriend Girls don’t go out with guys. They aren’t interested in not typically and so is she now? Yeah, okay, but but.
53:14.28
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
53:16.87
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
53:21.18
claremcivor
I do because I don’t know how to say no, but you know that’s me I.
53:21.86
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
53:27.21
Rebecca
But but you have a girl who’s just in love with her boyfriend Trevor right? and Trevor starts pushing her too far and the the message in her head are oh well I shouldn’t have worn that short skirt then oh but this is just how boys are so I shouldn’t have put in us I shouldn’t have put us in the position to be alone like this.
53:42.42
Tara Teng
Yeah.
53:43.53
Rebecca
Oh and we actually heard from women who were victims of sexual assault who thought I feel so guilty that I just made him do that to me and we heard that so many times and and so that’s why I think why a lot of this is all connected is because we’ve set up and I say we know I’m not actually evangelical.
53:50.67
claremcivor
Yes, yeah.
53:50.71
Tara Teng
Yeah.
54:03.39
Rebecca
But the evangelical church has set up this situation where men hold all of the power because it is their their God’s designated leaders and women are just so easily deceived and easily manipulated and so they can’t be leaders but also women are the the.
54:09.17
Tara Teng
A.
54:19.62
Rebecca
Foundation of all of men’s purity and their ability to not sin ever and so men are able to be in charge of absolutely everything except for their sexual urges which have to be completely modified and moderated by women but women are the ones who are easily deceived and easily let astray by emotion and it none of it makes sense but because it’s rooted in fear.
54:32.62
Tara Teng
It makes no sense. Yeah.
54:38.93
Rebecca
It takes hold right? and I’m sure Tara has stuff to say on that so I’ll stop there.
54:40.65
claremcivor
Ah.
54:43.12
claremcivor
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it’s and here’s the thing sex and fear shouldn’t be in the same sphere at all. But when it’s conditioned that way. But yeah look I feel like yeah, do you know what? as like when I made that crack about.
54:52.24
Tara Teng
Ever.
55:02.30
claremcivor
About me dating men that I’m not interested in so instantly the thought that popped into my head was oh I hope that nobody on this podcast I Hope that nobody listening to this podcast thinks I’m a slut because I’ve said that and instantly instantly I wanted to go.
55:12.53
Rebecca
Oh.
55:13.97
Tara Teng
Oh.
55:18.21
claremcivor
And I hope I need to correct that and make sure that people know I don’t have sex with everyone I date and that I’ve got a low body count that and the reason that I’m raising that is because that’s the voice of shame. Ah so because guess what who you have sex with how many people you have sex with.
55:26.52
Tara Teng
And.
55:37.43
claremcivor
This is all part of your own sexual ethic. It’s nobody’s business. You don’t have to be accountable to anyone apart from your chosen partner if you have 1 or your primary partner like and it’s not about accountability. It’s about agreement. Um, this is a complicated area but I just wanted to share that because that was the voice of shame popping up.
55:39.80
Tara Teng
Yeah, yeah.
55:54.89
Tara Teng
A.
55:56.76
claremcivor
That was me feeling like I still need to tell people that I’m the good Christian Virgin type ah and that and I’m calling awareness to it because shame is about calling like you know finding a way through shame is is partially about calling it out.
56:01.18
Tara Teng
Yeah.
56:15.88
claremcivor
And you know yeah I just want to get your thoughts on on everything that Rebecca was just saying terra.
56:20.80
Tara Teng
I just really appreciate. Well what everyone has been saying here but like Clara the fact that you name that I think is really important and I also want when you when you said that quip initially I was like you ah people do that though like people do say yes to sex they don’t want.
56:36.49
claremcivor
Um, yes, yes yeah.
56:39.86
Tara Teng
And they say yes to relationships they don’t want all the time because we’re taught as people who are assigned female at birth people who grew up in the church in high control religion and purity culture. We’re not taught to say no so it’s this paradox. We’re like yes, we’re meant to be the breaks of the relationship.
56:40.60
Shari
Mohamma.
56:52.13
claremcivor
Um, you know.
56:58.78
Tara Teng
To make sure that we don’t have sex before we’re married the onus is on the girls because there’s no way the boys could ever say no because that’s just how they are and the men have needs and and all of that bullshit which is so untrue because women actually can have higher libidos than men and it has nothing to do with gender. Regardless.
57:07.90
claremcivor
Um, ah.
57:15.72
Shari
Hey.
57:15.77
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
57:17.48
Tara Teng
Right? But like yes, so we we’re we’re in this paradox where we can’t say no but when it comes to sex. We have to say no because we are the last line of defense we are the only line of defense and also to then your point where you added on and you brought more nuance that oh I said this quip because I was really.
57:29.91
Shari
Yep.
57:36.45
Tara Teng
Afraid of being slut-shamd and to remember that there is actually no such thing as a slut there is no such thing as a slut there is no such thing as a horror we have this fear in our nervous system because sex.
57:42.41
claremcivor
Okay, let’s lean into that.
57:52.38
Tara Teng
And sexuality and a woman who enjoys her sex and sexuality that is something that we are afraid of that is a dangerous woman a woman to be feared and so we have been taught for so long for generations for so centuries.
58:01.17
claremcivor
Yeah.
58:09.29
Tara Teng
To fear our sexuality so that you don’t become that woman but there is nothing wrong with that.
58:11.63
claremcivor
Yeah, yeah, so so undoing the slut shaming undoing that that’s a juggernaut and and yeah and I think.
58:21.62
Tara Teng
Um, it is because it lives in our nervous system and it’s intergenerational trauma too.
58:31.50
claremcivor
There’s even slut shaming that internalized slut shaming for virgins who have gotten married to their first sexual partner and still feel guilty about wanting it because we’ve been told that that’s.
58:40.25
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, yeah, totally.
58:49.21
claremcivor
You know and and sherry’s just popped a comment into the chat isn’t it interesting how this system often likes to talk about the special role women play in marriage wife, homemaker mother, Etc but purity culture centers. All of its narrative on how dangerous the bodies of women and girls are that’s.
59:02.64
Tara Teng
Yes.
59:06.20
claremcivor
There’s just so much in that and say hello to your cat Kate I I can hear your cat. Ah I think that’s adorable, but um, look look cat same but there’s there’s so much in this.
59:09.41
Cait
Um, can you hear? um I was so sorry he’s hungry.
59:22.76
claremcivor
This this this voice of the the internalized sluthamming. How do we undo it Tara how do we and and how do we reframe this idea about the sexually immoral woman that you just kind of teased before and then let sit out to the ether.
59:25.51
Tara Teng
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
59:32.89
Tara Teng
Yeah, right? Yeah, we need to start to develop safety within our own bodies within our own sexuality. So one of the things that I noticed with a lot of the clients.
59:44.20
claremcivor
Um, of her.
59:48.82
Tara Teng
That I work with like yes we could talk about we see higher rates of vaginismus and and I should say also too that like as a somatic practitioner and as in my previous line of work I was a birth worker and so I’d work in tandem with a lot of pelvic floor physiotherapists I don’t know if you saw this with your research as well Rebecca but we with.
01:00:01.29
claremcivor
Well, you know.
01:00:08.79
Tara Teng
All of the pelvic physiotherapists that I work with they would say that people who come from high control religion or purity culture are going to see higher rates of sexual dysfunction in our actual muscle patterns of our bodies.
01:00:23.22
claremcivor
So.
01:00:23.70
Tara Teng
Where you get that hypertension in your pelvic muscles because you’ve been taught that you are the last line of defense to not have sex before you are married. So of course that’s going to eventually develop into something like a physical condition like vaginismus or Vulvedinia right? because you have your mind. Bodyy connection is so strong and so if we hold the trauma.
01:00:25.66
Shari
Ah.
01:00:32.96
Shari
Um, and.
01:00:43.41
Tara Teng
In our mind-body connection this is where somatics then is the healing modality that helps us heal that mind body connection and reestablish. Safety so that we can express so that we can have our embodied sexual safety to reclaim sexual liberation in alignment with our values. Our sexual ethics all of that right? and so this is where it’s so important to learn how to go from that disassociation to can we just experience.
01:01:10.71
claremcivor
Are the.
01:01:10.99
Tara Teng
Presence again. Can we experience pleasure if pleasure has been so threatened so weaponized against us because of purity culture. Can we experience now platonic pleasure right? So something likeen send right? I know so it’s ah it’s ah how does that even exist but pleasure exists.
01:01:23.29
Rebecca
Ah, her.
01:01:23.34
claremcivor
Um, what.
01:01:29.88
Tara Teng
All around us. It’s not inherently sexual, but it is inherent to being human and so what is the goodness. How does it feel so good to lie out with my feet on the grass and feel the warmth of the sunshine on my skin.
01:01:36.18
claremcivor
Um.
01:01:45.92
claremcivor
Um, the.
01:01:46.70
Tara Teng
That’s why it’s feels so good to go lie down on a blanket and the picnic in the park and like there is pleasure in that there is pleasure into biting into a perfectly ripe Juicy Strawberry you’re like oh it’s so delicious. It’s so juicy. It’s so good. There is platonic pleasure in that.
01:01:59.12
claremcivor
Yes.
01:02:05.34
Tara Teng
And if we can reclaim that and experience that and be in our bodies and in the moment in these ways that have nothing to do with sex and sexuality. Now we can start to disarm that fear that is embedded in our nervous system that makes it feel like we are Wrong. We are sinful. We are are terrible for being able to actually. Access that sexual pleasure to speak up to ask for what we want to enjoy our orgasms to be able to let go of that deeply ingrained control that hypervigilant control in our body that stops us from going too far or going off the cliff so that we can actually open up.
01:02:32.12
claremcivor
Um, and the.
01:02:43.86
Tara Teng
Soften embrace and receive pleasure so that we can get those beautiful juicy mind-blowing orgasms that are on the other side.
01:02:50.51
claremcivor
I I mean there’s There’s so many follow-up questions I want to ask I’ll share a memory of ah a a mindfulness workshop I was at where somebody actually decided. It would be great idea to show us all through eating a strawberry.
01:02:58.14
Tara Teng
Um, just.
01:03:06.72
Shari
Are.
01:03:06.92
claremcivor
The act of mindfulness and I it was hilarious because we were supposed to like just close our eyes and just enjoy the strawberry and just feel the texture and the taste and all this kind of stuff but people were so uncomfortable in that room because it felt like the the pleasure face like but I want to show my pleasure face to anyone here.
01:03:07.70
Tara Teng
Um, a 5
01:03:10.69
Tara Teng
E. Yes.
01:03:21.36
Tara Teng
Yes, ah me.
01:03:24.50
Shari
If.
01:03:26.67
claremcivor
Which I thought was so so funny. Um I want to I’m going to throw to you in a second. Yes, it it is it is so deeply ingrained even and I’m going to throw it you for a question in a second Rebecca but like even even in worship.
01:03:32.00
Tara Teng
Um, shows how deeply ingrained it is yes.
01:03:43.94
claremcivor
Services I used to be a Keyboardd player and I’d be looking out at people with their worship face on it and looks like their own face and then I’d be like I feel so ashamed for having made that connection myself and I don’t shouldn’t be imagining these people in sexual scenarios. Certainly not that old lady in the corner there. But you know like you just kind of but it is so just part of life. Um.
01:03:51.67
Tara Teng
Are.
01:03:57.31
Shari
But.
01:04:02.84
claremcivor
Okay I want to ask a really uncomfortable question oral sex and squirting are they 2 things that people just freak the fuck out about I’ve we’ve sworn so many times in this episode. But I think it’s okay, um, is that something that people really have blocks about post- purity culture.
01:04:18.38
Tara Teng
Yes, yes.
01:04:21.57
claremcivor
Um, Tara and then I’ll throw to Rebecca after that it did just lead me through that conversation. How how that happens with people.
01:04:28.25
Tara Teng
All all the ah, all the above I mean I have clients who will come to me and when we start working together. They’re like I haven’t had an orgasm I can’t have orgasms or it’s really hard and we get into this cycle right? where it’s like. It’s taking too long. It’s not going to happen and now I’m uncomfortable now I’m in my head and I’ve been there as well too right? So like these things are really really real. We’re just talking about like a normal orgasm like when I say normal order I’m going to say like you’re most easily accessible which is probably a clitoral orgasm for most people, right? A lot of people. So. Struggle just to have a clutoral orgasm or to have an orgasm without a vibrator right? and then there’s the shame of like oh I shouldn’t be using Vibrators I’ve been taught that impurity culture that vibrators are bad or vibras are gonna take away from my connection or relationship like there’s all these things that are just so hard to even speak right. Much less. Oh that you can actually have orgasms from your Cervix. You can have orgasm from from your nipple you can. You can have gpot Orgasms you can squirt you can ejaculate like all of these things right? that? Yes, they exist that there’s so much pleasure everywhere in your body but it feels so inaccessible.
01:05:40.94
claremcivor
And.
01:05:42.79
Tara Teng
To us right? and so having a safe place to talk about these things is so incredibly healing for my clients having a safe place to demystify all of the taboos to to look at the data of things like what Rebecca is speaking to but then actually have a place where we can bring all of those things where. Have clients who will be like I can’t believe but I need to ask you this question right? And so we we place where we can actually ask those questions and we didn’t have the access to comprehensive sex ed now we can actually get that now we can actually start to move through that we can notice where those blocks are in our body where our body gets to that point where it shuts off.
01:06:02.95
claremcivor
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:19.91
Tara Teng
Where we move up into our mind where we start to go. Okay, it’s taking too long I look funny. Um my body is doing weird things. There’s weird fluids everywhere. There’s like weird sounds my body just queathed like oh my gosh like I feel so uncomfortable about all these different things or I really think it’s hot that this like I have this.
01:06:29.77
claremcivor
Ah.
01:06:39.75
Tara Teng
Kink or this desire or I’m aroused by this thing but like oh I could never speak it right? like all of those things are visceral responses that live in your body so we can start to peel back the layers and bring these things that we have pushed aside in shame.
01:06:43.71
claremcivor
Yeah.
01:06:56.82
Tara Teng
Start to come back into relationship with them start to normalize them start to make them safe and accessible again. So that we could actually get to the point of embodying and experiencing it again.
01:07:07.47
claremcivor
Yeah, which I think is so powerful and honestly if you need to get a sex and intimacy coach I think you should um and it’s not as it’s a safe thing and it’s not a creepy thing. There’s no kinks here. But.
01:07:21.11
Tara Teng
It really.
01:07:23.77
claremcivor
Um, I’m no kink shaming here but Rebecca tell me about what have been the greatest learnings since you’ve started on this. She deserves better journey and what is the cure What do we do to support women in evangelical circles and I know like in future episodes we’re we’re going to talk more with. You know, non-women um and stuff like that. But I think purity culture ground 0 the the victims on the ground of purity culture to a much different degree. Not not yet that is is women so what? what would you tell women in this space about you know hope.
01:08:01.55
Rebecca
I’ll say first of all that one of the biggest things that I found encouraging in this space because we’ve talked so much about how it’s 1 thing to have like a discussion about the best. Way to make past a sauce where like we might not have a visceral somatic response but a lot of these conversations are so hard to have because we do trigger into that that learned response so easily and so quickly.
01:08:14.81
claremcivor
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:17.80
Tara Teng
Um.
01:08:29.19
Rebecca
And that’s one of the things why we love using the data so much because you can you can actually say let’s exactly what taro was saying earlier. Let’s talk about the elephants’ and what are you afraid of okay evangelical women and and moms who are coming out of Evangelicalism who are now raising kids and like I don’t know what on Earth to do? What are they terrified of. Terrified The kids are going to make decisions they regret in high school that are going to ruin the rest of their lives in their head right? That’s their. That’s they’re worried about they’re worried that their kids are going to um, do things that yeah damage their future. They’re go to end up in a bad relationship. They’re going to. Ah you know.
01:08:47.87
claremcivor
Are.
01:08:48.77
Tara Teng
A.
01:09:01.55
Rebecca
Ah, um, they’re gonna make mistakes they’re gonna have shame all these different things and what we’ve realized is when you just take a step back and you actually look at the numbers. All those things go away because you know more comprehensive sex education is not actually related to kids even having more sex. It’s actually like.
01:09:10.98
Tara Teng
Um, a.
01:09:15.96
claremcivor
No.
01:09:16.77
Tara Teng
Yeah.
01:09:19.87
Rebecca
Of having less sex and for it to be safer. Um, and it’s like and it’s it’s this This idea is like we can look at it and no matter where you’re at the perspective is you know, getting back to that idea what tarra was saying like figuring out how to act in Harmony with your.
01:09:20.14
Shari
Um, yeah.
01:09:21.94
Tara Teng
Yeah.
01:09:24.45
claremcivor
Um, ah.
01:09:30.50
Tara Teng
A.
01:09:39.82
Rebecca
Ethics your body your experience and honoring that because some people are going to have a different idea of what’s acceptable than you and you know what your kids might have a different idea of what’s acceptable than you and if we know that the best case scenario is to give them all the information.
01:09:45.39
Tara Teng
Um, a.
01:09:57.84
Rebecca
And let them make an informed decision. They might make the same decision. You want them to make they might not but at least they will be safe like and I think I think that’s how we’re trying to talk about it with women is like this idea of okay, we especially women who are who are like.
01:09:58.38
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
01:10:04.60
claremcivor
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:10:05.14
Shari
A.
01:10:05.30
Tara Teng
Yeah.
01:10:14.73
Rebecca
Still not sure where where they are with their purity culture like hey like I I don’t think it’s good anymore. But I still benefited from it at a lot. Okay, let’s let’s talk about those core fears again. The core fears of the thirteen year olds and or Gs in seventh grade or whatever like let’s talk about it. It’s legit less likely to happen if you give your kids comprehensive sex education.
01:10:21.67
claremcivor
The.
01:10:22.74
Shari
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:10:28.62
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, yeah, hundred percent yeah
01:10:31.14
claremcivor
Yeah, yes.
01:10:33.78
Rebecca
It is less likely that your daughter will be a victim of sexual assault if she knows the signs of coercion and she knows about consent and what consent looks like and what consent doesn’t look like.
01:10:43.13
claremcivor
Yes, yes.
01:10:44.96
Tara Teng
Yeah.
01:10:45.62
Rebecca
Your daughter is less likely to end up in an abusive relationship if you actually teach her about Arousal and more importantly, Arousal non-concordance in relationships and this idea of like okay Arousal non-concordance is when your body and your and your brain are separated so you might.
01:10:46.96
Shari
Yep.
01:10:51.64
Tara Teng
Yes.
01:10:54.94
Shari
Now.
01:10:57.18
claremcivor
What’s that.
01:11:03.80
Rebecca
Say I don’t want this I don’t want this but then quote unquote your body gives in and then a lot of women say well I wasn’t raped because I liked it. It’s so damaging.
01:11:05.43
claremcivor
Write and that is a damaging message because they’re not always the same. Wow.
01:11:11.79
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
01:11:13.98
Shari
Now.
01:11:15.57
Rebecca
And and and we hear that and we heard this from so many people where it’s like you’re you’re you’re in this situation where you’re making it with your boyfriend. He goes further. You said no, but then you know you have an orgasm so could it have been rape. Of course it could have like the mind and the body do not always act in tandem.
01:11:26.80
claremcivor
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:11:27.43
Shari
Tip.
01:11:27.63
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:11:33.42
Rebecca
And these are the kinds of things that when we’re talking to women about it and I think where we’re going to see the change is just and I’m of course biased because my job is information dissemination but we just need information. Ah we need to be willing to step back and look at it objectively.
01:11:42.55
claremcivor
Yeah, yes, yes.
01:11:44.72
Tara Teng
Yeah.
01:11:51.49
Rebecca
And not immediately look for what um confirms What we’ve already been doing because it’s like what my dad would teach me we were growing up. It’s like you know if we’re doing the wrong thing. The dumbest thing we can do is keep going.
01:11:56.15
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
01:11:56.92
Tara Teng
Yeah, yeah.
01:12:04.29
Shari
Yeah.
01:12:04.55
Tara Teng
Yeah.
01:12:05.70
Rebecca
Right? And so like this is this is a mentality that I’m hoping that our research is starting to bring to these spaces and starting to bring to these women and we’re helping women see that you know you can live in a way that is totally in line with your sexual ethic that is not dangerous.
01:12:20.48
Tara Teng
Yeah, have.
01:12:23.55
Rebecca
To the people that you have influence over or dangerous to yourself. You can live in this way and also we as a church for those who are still in church. We can do this better because we all deserve better than having our ability to consent be taken away.
01:12:25.77
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
01:12:33.82
claremcivor
I yeah.
01:12:37.90
Shari
Ah, ah yeah.
01:12:38.98
claremcivor
Yeah, absolutely So the whole knowledge the the whole thing about deconstruction that I find really interesting is people think it’s a mental movement but it needs to be a mental and body movement.
01:12:51.25
Tara Teng
And and hi man here.
01:12:54.70
Shari
Yeah.
01:12:56.35
claremcivor
And the thing about purity culture is people think it’s a theology. It’s not a theology. It’s a system that is mental. It is spiritual. It is emotional. It is physically setting us up for abuse it is setting us up to self.
01:13:02.66
Tara Teng
Said.
01:13:08.39
Shari
Hep.
01:13:16.26
claremcivor
Denigrate to so to to dissociate to to not be in the experience of our bodies. So there’s definitely. There’s a 2 wo-step thing for me here I’m going first think like listeners please I could interview both of these women forever and we don’t have forever. So buy the books.
01:13:18.76
Tara Teng
And in.
01:13:29.85
Tara Teng
Leaving you.
01:13:34.58
claremcivor
Buy the she deserves better by your body is a ah revolution I feel like there’s so many more questions to ask, but just kind of coming off the back of what Rebecca’s just said terra what does that raise for you in terms of the somatic experience of everything that she’s just said.
01:13:48.38
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, it’s so much and what I I kept feeling in my body as I was listening to you is the fact that when we’re talking about reclaiming sexual liberation. So often. The naysayers will say well then it’s just going to be this Free-for-all everybody’s having sex with that.
01:14:07.81
claremcivor
Um, yeah, ah sorry so much. Yeah.
01:14:08.84
Shari
Um, yeah.
01:14:13.16
Tara Teng
It’s all the world is burning down. This is the thing that’s going to destroy the culture like how often have we heard that right? but that’s not actually what happens what happens when we have sexual liberation is now I have the language to say what I want and what I don’t want.
01:14:22.17
Shari
Yeah.
01:14:30.18
claremcivor
And no, no.
01:14:32.19
Tara Teng
Now I can be really clear with my embodied boundaries now I can ask for the sex that I want and stop saying yes to the sex that I hate that feels painful or uncomfortable or cringy or that doesn’t allow me to have deeply connected expressive authentic embodied connection with the.
01:14:42.24
claremcivor
Um, and.
01:14:51.47
Tara Teng
Person or people that I’m connecting with it allows me to bring play in like how often do adults get to play our sex and our sexuality is this beautiful expressive place where we get to access play in a way that is safe now we think of role-playing. We think of.
01:14:51.90
claremcivor
And this.
01:14:55.44
Shari
Know.
01:14:57.33
claremcivor
Click.
01:15:03.25
claremcivor
Yeah.
01:15:08.87
Tara Teng
Dancing we think of connection like there’s so much that can happen here. We get to now welcome in all of these parts of ourself that we have felt like we had to push aside that is so deeply healing. Our sexuality is the place where we can meet these parts of ourself where we can show up in the fullness. Of who we are and meet someone else in the fullness of who they are in this safe container where that your no is as sexy as your yes and your yes is this beautiful expression and liberation and that’s what we’re talking about when we’re talking about this.
01:15:40.70
claremcivor
Oh yeah.
01:15:44.66
Tara Teng
Sexual liberation when we’re talking about establishing a healthy sexual ethic when we’re talking about mutual flourishing and care and reproductive health and consent and fully informed consent and all of these things that we often don’t get to experience in the other aspects of our lives. But. We get to have in this beautiful tender place where we bring the fullness of who we are into it and it’s beautiful and that’s what I want for people and that’s what I love that your data is bringing to it and that’s what I just hope that we all can get to experience.
01:16:08.44
claremcivor
E.
01:16:08.82
Shari
Are.
01:16:20.90
Tara Teng
And embody and reclaim for ourselves.
01:16:22.26
claremcivor
Yeah, that’s that’s beautiful and and you know the thing that comes up for me is that we often say that knowledge is power and it is knowledge is power but listening to your body is knowledge it is and we’ve been cut off from that part of it.
01:16:32.60
Shari
And yeah.
01:16:32.76
Tara Teng
Um, yeah, yeah.
01:16:41.54
claremcivor
And I think bringing these 2 aspects together is really powerful sherry what what is this session been like for you sitting there typing questions into the chat and and listening to your 2 fellow canadians and ah, what is what has this been like for you and and any thoughts as we kind of wrap out the episode.
01:16:47.60
Tara Teng
We need.
01:16:59.75
Shari
Oh It’s It’s been great. Um,, there’s definitely been moments in this conversation where like my body is getting tight like oh my gosh you know these are taboo topics for talking about. Um, which is you know again, that’s us my nervous system ingrained with old messages that I’m still working Through. Um, but I I I Love I was so excited when we got both of you on as our guest because I knew your the work that you’re both doing compliments each other so well and that really came out in this conversation I think and I love it. Um, and I just I keep thinking about like in my own. Journey Um, before I learned about you know consent and what I want my sexual ethic to be in all of that like my only rule was don’t have sex and don’t turn on voice shaped man-shaped people. Um.
01:17:48.89
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
01:17:50.90
claremcivor
Um, Earth and.
01:17:56.80
Shari
But.
01:17:57.74
claremcivor
And terror’s on the floor.
01:18:01.88
Tara Teng
Sorry Mike Yourself is thinking that is hilarious right now.
01:18:08.26
Rebecca
Um.
01:18:09.57
claremcivor
We’re trying to nail this affirmative affirming language and I didn’t even ask that if if anyone he was thank you for coming out to us Tara.
01:18:11.69
Shari
Ah, yeah, but.
01:18:20.35
Shari
Um, yeah.
01:18:20.96
Tara Teng
You’re welcome I Love I Love everybody I Love everybody.
01:18:26.30
claremcivor
That’s wonderful. Listen to the giggles my goodness Sorry Sherry What were you saying.
01:18:32.81
Shari
Ah, okay, so Noah but what I was saying was like in the before there was all of these Nos and not allowuds for me. But once I was able to develop my own values around sexuality. It was so empowering like I could enjoy just being in my body with for like.
01:18:36.98
Tara Teng
And maybe.
01:18:39.28
claremcivor
Um, infant.
01:18:45.85
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
01:18:48.38
Tara Teng
Um, yeah.
01:18:48.51
Shari
The first time I I didn’t know I could feel so comfortable in my skin which is that’s everything I think.
01:18:53.66
claremcivor
Yeah, yeah, what about you? Kate.
01:18:55.95
Tara Teng
You may.
01:19:00.34
Cait
Um, um I think I think I’m going to be thinking about this conversation for a long time. Um, just like the dissociation and coming back to my body and being my whole self. It’s something that the more I.
01:19:04.32
Tara Teng
He.
01:19:19.40
Cait
Think about and practice embodiment the more liberated I feel and but I do want to like acknowledge that that’s difficult, especially at the beginning when you’re coming out of a restricted religion or home or relationship and.
01:19:21.60
claremcivor
Are.
01:19:36.93
Cait
Trying to move forward after that. It’s really difficult and it can feel really isolating but I’m hoping that this conversation opens up those conversations more for other people because we think we’re alone and we we live in our heads sometimes about this. But.
01:19:41.24
claremcivor
Um, and.
01:19:52.77
Shari
And.
01:19:55.93
Cait
Like the other day I my therapist is trying to get me to like take pictures of my whole body because of my dissociation and I boasted one on Instagram and saying like I never post a picture of my entire body and so here I am and the number of people who sent me messages or commented like i.
01:20:00.50
Tara Teng
Then.
01:20:08.83
claremcivor
Wow.
01:20:15.23
Cait
Think exactly the same way. This is also hard for me to like recognize myself in photographs. Um, it just I didn’t expect that level of healing for myself by sharing that because other people are are feeling the same and I think.
01:20:16.34
Tara Teng
FA.
01:20:20.80
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
01:20:31.36
claremcivor
Um, yeah.
01:20:32.40
Shari
M.
01:20:33.94
Cait
We talk about it and when we just put it on the table and we acknowledge the pain and then we can move forward after that you know, but first you have to like say that this is hard and this is difficult but there is healing from it.
01:20:41.50
claremcivor
Yeah.
01:20:41.63
Shari
Um, yeah.
01:20:41.85
Tara Teng
E.
01:20:50.00
claremcivor
Yeah, that’s ah, can really really relate I Think yeah like I said before everyone everyone go by the books I think we need the knowledge that comes from the body we need the knowledge that comes from the data because both are needed to fight back against the culture.
01:20:51.54
Tara Teng
It’s good.
01:21:05.98
Tara Teng
A.
01:21:07.51
claremcivor
That has that has reduced us as women to to these objects. Um I know it’s been a heavy session. Let me let me let me close out with a funny story. Um during lockdown in. Oh yes.
01:21:20.27
Cait
Um, for a second there I thought you’re going to say let me close out with a prayer of like Claire. What are we doing.
01:21:26.38
claremcivor
Heavenly father lets all god oh god there’s only there’s only 1 time in life these days where I like to yellow god um, and hasn’t happened this year actually that’s ah pretty sad. Sorry got I want to tell you the most cringeworthy story of. During lockdown in Melbourne we were in lockdown for two hundred and sixty two days during covid and during this time I was sharing a house with my 2 children and my ex-husband who was out and proud and dating a guy who has the same name as my dad um, which is interesting for us. Um, and so I decided.
01:21:56.68
Shari
Wow.
01:22:02.40
claremcivor
You know what? I’m just it’s it’s it’s now now is the time I’m going to buy a vibrator because I’ve never done that before and so I I did that I ordered a vibrator and I I ordered the discrete packaging. Because I live in a cul-de-sac full of young families and houses and I didn’t want like you know the womanizer on my Doorstep. So I ordered the discrete packaging and it but it just so happened that it arrived and and with the discrete packaging you have to sign for it. The post is not allowed to just leave it. There.
01:22:23.94
Shari
Um.
01:22:35.10
claremcivor
I was on a Zoom meeting with a saudi arabian author when the the posty came to the door and my kids answered the door now they were aged 5 and 4 at the time. He’s handed the box to them because he could see me sitting there but I couldn’t hang up in the call to go over in the box and my children have torn open the box and the toy had some charge on it and and Henry’s pressed the button and he’s like what’s this Ah, it sounds like a lightsaber. Anyway, um, and because it was one of those klit stimulator um toys I’ve then I’ve like oh my gosh and so I’ve put the meaning and on mute and and like and and I’ve gone to the door and they’re like what’s this and I I just roseze I was like it’s a microdermibrasion wand. It’s for your slit.
01:23:09.97
Tara Teng
Yeah.
01:23:25.48
claremcivor
And and so I’m just like doing like moving the vibrator all over my face to tell the kids. It was a skincare product and the Posty left. so so fast um thankfully I’ve never seen him again. But um, that happened and I have no regrets over the purchase still. Ah.
01:23:29.37
Shari
Ah.
01:23:36.27
Shari
Um.
01:23:43.40
Rebecca
You know, like all those things like be the reason someone smiles today you were absolutely the reason that postman smiled that day that’s hilarious. Ah.
01:23:43.75
Tara Teng
Heck no.
01:23:46.59
claremcivor
Um.
01:23:50.97
claremcivor
Ah, so look I wish I could continue talking to you forever. This has just been such an interesting conversation and and you know I thank you so much for your time. Ah Rebecca where can we find you on the internet.
01:24:07.32
Rebecca
You can find me all the information about the books and ah I’m on our podcast at bearmarriage.com that’s bear b a r e not like the giant mammal that’s yeah bear marriage dot com.
01:24:12.17
claremcivor
Excellent important and and terror what about you.
01:24:14.80
Tara Teng
Um.
01:24:22.57
Tara Teng
Yeah, um, you can find me all across social media at Ms. Terraang or through my website terraangng.com I’d love to hear from people. So there’s a contact form that goes directly to my email if anyone wants to chat more or if they’re interested in in looking into working 1 on 1 seeing if that’s a good fit. Maybe you noticed as you were listening to this, you’re like oh my gosh. That’s me oh my gosh. That’s me oh my gosh. That’s me for different things that resonated I would love to be able to be that person who gives you that support if that’s something that you’re looking for um and and if not I am always in people’s corner cheering them on and maybe the book is something that’ll be supportive for them and you can find.
01:24:42.23
claremcivor
Yeah.
01:24:49.35
claremcivor
Yeah.
01:24:58.10
Tara Teng
Your body is a revolution wherever books are sold anywhere in the world in every format from audio to ebook to print whatever is helpful for you. It is there and I hope that you find the medicine that you need.
01:25:10.74
claremcivor
Brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It’s been a ah interesting conversation in so many ways and and thank you to to Kate and and sherry for sitting there in the background and typing the questions in and and giving your reflections I know this is.
01:25:22.14
Rebecca
Leaving.
01:25:27.20
claremcivor
Ah, topic that I think we need to continue to talk about until it doesn’t need to be talked about anymore and I can’t see a point where that will ever be true. So um, let’s yes, yes, ah so let’s.
01:25:28.60
Tara Teng
A.
01:25:36.10
Tara Teng
Ah, but we’re working for it. We’re working for it. We’re working for it. Yeah I mean and I will say I get to see it right because I get to work with people on their healing and who are.
01:25:36.15
Rebecca
Ah, just say let’s hope that it’s never true. Our goal is to write ourselves out of a job that’s ah.
01:25:40.60
Shari
Yeah, yeah.
01:25:46.97
claremcivor
You know.
01:25:50.74
Tara Teng
On their way out the other side and I love when I sign into a session with a client and they’re like I just need to tell you how many orgasms I am having now like guys don’t give up it is out there and we love to see it. We want I. Love when I get to celebrate with my clients because they’re having all these amazing wins in their life and in their bodies and in their relationships. It is worth continuing to do the hard work of healing for do not give up on it.
01:26:09.68
claremcivor
Yes.
01:26:21.87
claremcivor
Yeah, absolutely my condition self wanted to yell Amen just then ah so instead I’ll say fuck. Yeah, thank you for tuning in to.
01:26:32.30
Tara Teng
Ah bug. Yeah.
01:26:32.92
claremcivor
Instead we’ll say that. So thank you for tuning in to survivors’ discuss for episode number 3 I’m Claire Heath Maciveva I’m here with Kate West with Sheri Smith with Rebecca Lindden back and Ms Tarra Tang thank you so much. All of links all of the links will be in our show notes make sure you go and get yourself the information that you deserve knowledge is power but your body is giving you knowledge all the time. So let’s bring those 2 worlds together. Thank you very much.
Survivors Discuss Podcast 
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